Episode 8: Imperfect Marketing with Brenda Cadman, Canva Expert

Kendra Corman:

Hi, and thank you so much! Welcome back to Imperfect Marketing. 

Today, I am super excited to be joined by Brenda Cadman, who is a Canva expert and the founder of Bon Accord Creative. I'm hoping I'm saying that correct.

Brenda Cadman:

You got it right, yes.

Kendra Corman:

So Brenda, so many people know you as a Canva expert, including myself, but you're so much more. You didn't start training people with Canva or even using Canva in your business. 

So let me go ahead and have you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are.

Brenda Cadman:

Happy to!

Yes, Canva came along much longer after I started my business. My first business entrepreneurial adventure was back in January 2000. So I've actually been an entrepreneur for over 22 years now, kind of mind blowing. 

But the landscape looked very different 22 years ago than it does now, particularly given that my first business was a website development company. It's seen multiple iterations over the years, but I do still run Bon Accord Creative as a website development company.

So it started in that area, just helping businesses with their websites. I ended up meeting somebody else who was a specialist in graphic design. We teamed up and built a digital marketing agency that we worked together for, oh gosh, seven years, I think. 

And then in 2013 I decided I wanted to go back out on my own again, get out of the social media strategy side of things and the paid advertising side of things and all those various areas that really do need to be treated as their own specialties. And I just went back to focusing on website development.

And then I lost my graphic designer suddenly in 2014, early 2014, 2013, somewhere around there. And while I was looking for a replacement, I stumbled across this wonderful new graphic design program called Canva. And I started dabbling with it, and I have long deleted the original designs, and I'm grateful because cringeworthy is an understatement. 

But since 2014 I've been using the tool, and it just became clear that it was something other people needed support learning how to use. So I ended up teaching them what I knew, and here we are today, many, many moons later.

Kendra Corman:

Oh, that's fantastic. 

And I agree with you paid advertising and social media strategy are their own specialties unto themselves, especially paid advertising. People don't realize how much time goes into the monitoring and management of those things and really how time intensive they can be. And if you don't understand every piece of it, it can drive you crazy.

Brenda Cadman:

Oh, 100%. And I didn't love it either. It was something that came part and parcel with setting up their websites and setting up their various online marketing initiatives. And then we just got pulled into all these components. 

We were interested in it, but I never had a love affair with social media strategy or management or any of those aspects. So I figured, let's leave that for somebody who's particularly good at it, and I'm going to go do what I actually love to do.

Kendra Corman:

You saw this whole of people using Canva, really not fully understanding the tool, which I think is amazing. What drove you to be so passionate about it, to create a Facebook group around it, to create courses around helping people do it, and I think you do some coaching around it too?

Brenda Cadman:

Sort of, but I'm working on a VIP day, and that's something down the road, but right now it's more membership and courses. 

You know what? I will have to give the credit really to being in the Digital Course Academy Facebook group. I took DCA from Amy Porterfield in 2019. Now I started doing courses originally in 2014, back in the days when you really did not have the options in terms of platforms. 

If folks think that it's a tech nightmare component of setting up courses now, let me introduce you to course creation in 2014. There was no Kajabi. There was nothing like there is now.

So I'd been dabbling in that for some time, but it was around 2019 that I actually went into that program thinking that I was going to create a course about websites. And what I quickly noticed, because anytime I join a course that has a community, I am all in the community. I love being a part of online communities. 

And I noticed how many people were asking about Canva, and I was already very comfortable using it. And I was using it for creating my checklists and my lead magnets and all these different marketing and course materials that you need to support a digital course.

And so many people were asking questions about this, and I fell into, just out of helping them, not thinking I would create a course around it, saying, "Would it help if I did a quick training video just to upload and give you the 101s and all that?" And there was a tremendous response. 

And so I did one, and then I did another one. And then people started saying, "Is this what your course is about? This is what your course should be about." At that point, I realized, well, it is now.

So the website course went on the back burner. I actually did create that course. I never sold it. I was just going to use it as a lead magnet on my website development agency side of things. But I abruptly switched my focus in 2019 to the Canva side of things and realized that this is something that I had just taken for granted.

I think entrepreneurs, in particular, fall into a trap. Well, not even just entrepreneurs, people in general fall into a trap of not recognizing their own genius in certain areas. And if it comes so easily to you, you just assume that it comes easily to everybody. And you don't recognize that this is something special that you have to offer and that people will pay for and want to learn from you.

And it took being in that group environment and listening to all these people saying, "I don't know how to do this," and "You make it look so easy," to understand this is something that not only was I good at teaching, that I loved teaching. 

And it was finally finding that sweet spot of wanting to teach something and also having an audience who were eager, not only to hear about it, but to pay me for it as well. And it's hard to find that sweet spot.

Kendra Corman:

No, that's amazing. I love how you said that. 

So first, just to break down a couple things. So one, you talked about being active in the community. You were very active in the community. When I was taking Amy Porterfield's course, Digital Course Academy, this past fall in 2021. That's where we met. 

And I love the fact you and I have a very similar belief in just helping people, giving people information, really trying to serve and help. And I love that. And that's why I connected with you and wanted to have you on and things like that. But I agree 100% we take things for granted.

I still remember when I was getting ready to start my marketing consulting business. I met with the head of my MBA program, and I had lunch with him, and I was talking about what I wanted to do next. 

And he was like, "Well, why don't you go out on your own?" And I was like, "Well, nobody's going to pay me for that." 

He's like, "I hate to break it to you, but somebody does already pay you for it. It's called your salary." 

And I was like, "Oh, huh. Didn't think about that."

Brenda Cadman:

What do you know?

Kendra Corman:

But yeah, we have a tendency to discount ourselves and our skills, especially the stuff that comes easy to us, and we forget that it doesn't come easy to others. And I think that's hugely, hugely insightful. So that's awesome.

Now we talked a little bit about how the beginning stages of your courses worked out way back in the beginning, back in 2014, because of technology and all those things that we just didn't have those resources available.

Brenda Cadman:

No, we did not.

Kendra Corman:

But now that you've moved on into the modern technology and things like that, what are some roadblocks or barriers that you've had with this round of iterations or even back then outside of the technology?

Brenda Cadman:

Honestly, I think where it took a long time to learn the lesson was the importance of validating your course ideas or your membership ideas or whatever it is. And for many, many years, in the beginning stages in particular, I had several website courses, and there were some sales, but it was sad trombone responses. 

And it's because I made the mistake that every new course creator makes, which is I created what I thought people needed, not what they wanted. It doesn't matter how much you know they need to learn this. If they don't care about it, if they don't see the value in it, if they don't want to put the time into it, they're sure as hell not going to put the money into it.

And you end up expending all this energy, all this time that you could be putting into building some other aspect of your business or just enjoying your life. And it is incredibly disheartening to be on the other end of that and to feel like you just wasted a whole lot of time. 

So unfortunately I did not learn that lesson the first time or the second time, because we talked about wanting to serve, and I just knew how much this information was going to help them. And it took years to understand that I would need to serve up that information and that support in another way, that of course, the way I wanted to teach it was not the right fit for it.

So honestly, the course validation, the importance of doing that and not just validation is not tossing an idea out there and having a few people saying, "Oh yeah, I think that sounds like a great idea." 

It's really deep diving into understanding who this course is for, getting on conversations with them and finding out what specifically are the challenges that they have and hearing from enough people that they would invest in something and knowing that you can actually make a transformation for them or help them come to a transformation before you start expending any effort into it.

And also, I found out multiple times that people will tell you what they think you want to hear. They will tell you that they'll pay for it. And when push comes to shove, sometimes they just don't. A lot of the time they just don't. 

So really, really understanding your position in the marketplace, who your audience is and all those things is so important before you start recording those lessons.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. And I think it goes even beyond course creation. 

When I talk to my clients of my marketing consulting company, I'm like, "Okay. So tell me, what are questions that your target audience asks?" 

It's amazing because there's very few of my clients that can answer that question. They can't tell me what questions people are asking.

And if we don't understand what they don't know, even in a traditional business, not online course creation business, you can't create lead magnets. You can't create that lead generation and that inbound marketing without knowing what they want and what questions they have.

And so I love what you're talking about, the validation calls and calling people and talking to them and asking them questions. And I think no matter what business you're in, you have to do that. That market research is key.

Brenda Cadman:

100%.

Kendra Corman:

I think even if you're an established business, it's key, because things are changing and it keeps you on top of what's next. It's not easy to set the time aside for it and to think about who to call and to reach out and find the right people to call, it works.

Brenda Cadman:

And paying attention to what they're saying. And not only am I really happy in online communities because I can jump in and answer questions and help people, and I get that immediate gratification that I get as somebody who is a nurturer by nature. 

Additionally, you can see what questions they're asking. You can search on a key term. You can see, is the same question coming up over and over? 

And that is the reason that I knew making that switch into Canva courses rather than trying to force this website course to happen, that it was the right pivot to make, because I could see all the questions. And it was the same questions over and over, and I could see a solution to this. 

So the reality is not only can you get support potentially for an idea that you're building. You may uncover an idea that you didn't even consider until you started participating in a community environment.

Kendra Corman:

I think that's great. In talking about community, I know you're very busy, but again, I see you all the time on different communities and I follow you and your How to Use Canva Facebook group, which you guys can check the show notes for. And you're always engaging with others and you're sharing information, which I love. 

What's your secret to staying motivated and really marketing and running two totally, completely separate businesses?

Brenda Cadman:

Well, listen. I will tell you, this has been a long-term battle, the balancing of both. The reality is that I just, in the last few weeks, this far into my business, finally had to have a bit of a come to Jesus with myself and admit that I cannot build or manage both of these to the level that I want. 

And I refuse at this point to drop either of them, but I did end up significantly narrowing the offerings on my website development agency. So I could free up the time and the effort and the energy and just the mental bandwidth to be able to build my Canva business to the level that I want it to be.

And I have tried for so many years to try to make both of them happen. The only reason it has managed as long as it has is I have a really good team on the website side of things. I have an assistant who's wonderful, and I have the best website developer you will ever come across, and I've worked with her for 15 years. 

And it's why now that I have narrowed the offerings, I'm not taking on website development projects anymore. I'm not taking on website maintenance projects anymore. I'm sticking to one specific offer. 

I am now not outsourcing. I'm referring all the business to her directly because eventually you just have to get to a point of deciding, what do I actually want to spend my time on?

And I'm realizing this far into my business I'm not the 20-something I was when I started, and I don't have the energy, and I don't want to work until midnight. And I have a daughter, and I have a husband, and I have a life that I want to lead, and I don't want to be spending all my time trying to grow two businesses. 

So narrowing down the offerings on one was really key.

Kendra Corman:

I think that's just really insightful and really helpful for a lot of people, because I do see a lot of people trying to run two businesses, myself included, and it is hard. 

Who are you when you go here? Who are you when you're posting there? Even though they're related, it's still very difficult to create and promote. 

And so I give you a ton of credit, because that is not an easy thing to do.

Brenda Cadman:

Well, particularly when they're two different audiences. There was some overlap, and I think I was fibbing to myself for a long time about how much overlap there was when the reality was that the demographics of who those offers were for was significantly different. 

And it meant having two Facebook pages. It meant having two Instagram channels. I tried to merge the ideas into one Facebook group, and it just didn't work. And I had to step back and rededicate it just to Canva because that's why people were there. They didn't want WordPress tips as well.

So it's a lot of work, not just in the management and the client management while you're trying to build something else, but also just from an inbound marketing standpoint of all the stuff you need to do to build the traffic to hopefully convert to leads, it's too much. 

And you have to acknowledge within yourself, are you overdoing it? 

And I am a perpetual overgiver, so it really required making some hard choices. And I will say on the other side of that choice is a real sense of freedom.

And my inbox has never been more quiet, and I love waking up in the morning, and there's like a couple of emails and maybe some Stripe notifications of course payments. And that's all that's in there. There is nobody asking me to look into why their website's gone down, and I am so happy for that change.

Kendra Corman:

Thank you so much for sharing that with us. 

Because again, I do think that I'm a true believer that niching down, being specific, having a single message out in the marketplace is extremely important for all business owners. And as you niche down, your business actually grows. 

And I think that is hard for a lot of people to get, and the reason I believe that is because it's hard for me. I can tell my clients to do it all day, and it's even hard for me. Again, when you were talking about your previous web agency that you had, where you were doing social media and paid advertising and things like that, you can't be all things to all people. You have to be something to someone.

When you think of Nike, you think of the swoosh, you think of the shoes, things like that. They can't be everything. You have a handful of brands that really resonate with you in your life, and it's because they stand for something. Thinking about Patagonia, and they have a feeling for who those brands are. And I think dedicating your brand to Canva is going to be huge for you.

Brenda Cadman:

Well, and I know that it was causing a lot of brand confusion because yes, I can help you on both sides of these things. And after 20 years in this industry just being an online business owner, I've got a lot to share, but it was causing such brand confusion, and people, they need to know me. 

I want to be known for something. I don't want to be sort of known for a couple of things. And I am the first to admit that my Canva education business is not where it could have been if I had been dedicating my time solely to growing and nurturing that business.

And that's a hard pill to swallow. Now that I have the energy and the time to dedicate to it, I know it's going to be more profitable. It's going to be more satisfying. I just had to rip that band aid off. And it was hard because after that long a period, it's part of your identity at that point. And I had to shed that identity a little bit.

I haven't totally let it go. We're still doing WordPress inspections and some renovations off of those, but that's it. I am not maintaining anybody's websites. Far from being something that was hard to let go of, once I actually did, like I said, it's been very freeing on the other side of it.

So if anybody's listening to this and there's a decision they want to make and they're struggling with it, there's other considerations, of course. There was so much guaranteed revenue coming from that, that it's hard to give up the sure thing for something that I know could be more profitable in the future but is still going to have a bit of a road to get there. 

And I am not advocating for dumping revenue if you are going to be struggling and stressed out as a result of doing that. But I got to a position where I knew I could scale that back and still be fine, so that's a privileged position to be in, I admit.

Kendra Corman:

I love that. And I like how you talked a little bit about the mental bandwidth. You can't be running yourself down and still have the time to be creative and to create strategy and plans around another business. Because if you're tired, you're not doing it to the level that you need to be doing it.

Brenda Cadman:

There is no getting into flow if you're burned out.

Kendra Corman:

Okay. So we talked a lot about online communities, but I want to ask you, what's your favorite marketing channel?

Brenda Cadman:

I am happiest in Facebook groups, and I know there are some people that feel like, oh, Facebook's the old thing. But no, I love being in that environment. I'm still really eager to lock down strategies for my Instagram and Pinterest and LinkedIn. And they're on my list, and I know I could do good things with them. 

But I find it easiest to just get in, see what people are asking, see what they're sharing, and jump into little conversations. And it's the perfect fit for an introvert like myself. I am the last person who wants to go to an in-person networking event. I despise them.

And 22 years later, I still break into a cold sweat if I have to go into a room of people I do not know. I hate it. But a virtual room of people I don't know? Nobody can see me, and it takes the pressure off. 

I love people, and I love talking to people and learning about people and helping people. So that community group environment has been ideal for me. And I think that's why I've been able to make such a success out of the group component of these courses that I've signed up for. 

Whereas other folks maybe don't see the same benefit out of them, if that makes sense.

Kendra Corman:

No, it totally makes sense, and I tell people that all the time. I'm like, when they're trying to pick a social media channel or something for their business, I'm like, "All right. Well, where do you like to go? Because if you don't like it, you won't feel authentic when you're there."

Brenda Cadman:

People can tell.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, people can tell that it's not authentic. People can tell. And you know what? It's exhausting for you.

Brenda Cadman:

Yeah. This is the reason I don't do reels or TikTok. Maybe someday I will. I'll probably need somebody supporting me doing that because it just feels like such an uphill slog to do it because I do not enjoy being on video. 

And yes, don't come at me with, "Oh, well, you use Canva. There are ways you can create content." 

Yes, I know, but I only have so much energy to give, and I'm going to put it somewhere that feels good at this point.

Kendra Corman:

Again, I think when it comes to energy, I think being, again, where you enjoy being is key. So again, be sure to check the show notes for a link to her How to Use Canva Facebook group, because it's fantastic. Now we can't have an interview without actually talking about Canva with you. 

So what are the three most overlooked features of Canva that you love?

Brenda Cadman:

I think three of the most overlooked are the three that I am the biggest champion for and that I talk about incessantly, the organizational capabilities in Canva, so custom folders, the brand kit, and the resize feature. 

These are three tools that you really need to know how to use, and you need to use them consistently and efficiently if you want to be able to create content in Canva that does not look DIY. And not only not look DIY, but if you don't want to be spending all your time down the Canva rabbit hole. 

I know it's a fun place to be, well, for some of us, but I don't want to see people spending gobs of time on Canva when they should be spending it on other aspects of growing and running their businesses.

This is supposed to be a tool. Tools are supposed to be efficient, but if you don't know how to use them effectively, they are going to become another source of stress. And it doesn't have to be that way. 

So if I can teach people how to use folders to create their own little Canva filing cabinet or how to use the brand kit so that they are creating content that looks consistently on brand without the overwhelm of all these fonts and colors and options to choose from, and just understanding how to use resize, which if you're creating a lot of content, often you can create something and then repurpose it into other dimensions and for other purposes without having to start from scratch each time.

So just understanding how to use some of these basic features. Now these are all pro features, which is another reason I'm such an advocate for paying the Canva fee. It's not a big fee. It's probably one of the cheapest business investments you're going to have, but those tools are on the pro account for a reason because they are game changers if you know how to use them.

Kendra Corman:

I agree with you. I love the brand kit because it saves my colors, and I don't have to keep looking them up every time. I can do it with one click also with the fonts. And then I haven't gotten into the folders yet, and so I do need to definitely spend more time on that.

Brenda Cadman:

Oh, Kendra, you and I need to have a chat. One of my early businesses was as a professional organizer, and I specialized in filing cabinets and paper organization. And the principles I used then and the principles I use now for organizing paper are the same principles that can be used to apply to a digital environment. And it just makes life so much easier. 

If you have a digital filing system that allows you to know exactly where that one design is or exactly where that one image is that you need so that you can find it quickly without having to scroll and scroll and scroll looking for it, it is just such a time saver. And if there's one thing we all need more time of right now, it's time. So you've got to get on the folders.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. No, I'm definitely. You talked to me about it earlier, I think, this year. Is that when they rolled out was earlier this year or was it late last year?

Brenda Cadman:

No, the folders have been around for some time, but what switched is the introduction of your projects. So in the past you could create the custom folders, but if you dragged a design into them, it didn't move off of your recent designs page because it just didn't have that functionality. 

So when they introduced the your projects environment, so when they introduce this new interface, now it operates more like you actually would find if you were dealing with a real life filing cabinet, where if you put it into the folder, it moves off your desk, and that's a much more intuitive experience. 

It's what people always were expecting organization to look like inside of Canva, so it was another source of stress that it didn't work that way. And while it may not have been what Canva sees as their biggest feature introduction of the year, it was huge for business owners. And the response when that came out was overwhelming. So that's why it was such a big deal earlier. 

Yeah, I can think it came out earlier this year.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, I think earlier this year, and I think it was a huge game changer in what drove me to be more interested in folders. I have a handful of them, but I definitely need to get more organized there. 

Now, what would you say is the biggest mistake you see people making on Canva?

Brenda Cadman:

You just described it, no filing system. Well, listen, it's a tie, not having a filing system and not having a brand kit, which often comes from not knowing how to use those features and what best practices are for setting them up and utilizing them. 

But if you don't have a filing system, even if you're just brand new to Canva, you may not feel the pain of that for a while because you don't have that many designs, you don't have that much media. But over time it becomes really overwhelming and cumbersome to find what you're looking for.

So I talk to so many people who say that their accounts are a hot mess, and they hate going in there because they can't find anything. So it's one of the easiest things to fix, but it can feel monumental because just like with filing systems in real life, paper in real life, they don't know where to start. So I would say just not creating an organizational system is one of the biggest ones.

And then really not creating a brand kit and using it consistently is huge because that's when you get cookie cutter looking designs. That's when you get stuff that doesn't look brand consistent. It's not recognizable as belonging to your brand. 

You have an Instagram feed that looks overwhelmed and cluttered and like you can't breathe when you look at it because it's just so much stuff. And this is why, if you are turning stuff out of Canva that constantly does not have a professional polished feeling, I guarantee you're not using the brand kit consistently.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. And I think one of the things that I see people doing with Canva is they have too much fun in Canva.

Brenda Cadman:

Yes.

Kendra Corman:

Stay away from too much fun. It's not part of your brand.

Brenda Cadman:

Don't stay away from too much fun, but save the too much fun for something other than your business marketing material.

Kendra Corman:

There you go. There you go. Yes, you do not need the blinking heart in the middle of the-

Brenda Cadman:

So many pretty fonts and so many pretty colors, and creative brand kits stick to a creative font hierarchy. Stick to it, and it actually makes it easier because you don't have to be distracted by all the pretty shiny things.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. No, I think that's an excellent, excellent tip. 

So this show is called Imperfect Marketing. I do want to ask you a question, and I feel like Rita Skeeter from Harry Potter, as I'm like, so readers want to know. 

We all make mistakes. Marketing's not an exact science by any stretch of anyone's imagination, including mine. 

What would you identify as your biggest marketing fail, mistake, something that you learned from not to do again?

Brenda Cadman:

The thing that my husband has been telling me for years not to do, and I finally learned the lesson. Just what we were talking about earlier about as far as the beginning stages of the business and the course creation, and it really was not validating the courses and putting so much into these programs that nobody wanted. 

And what I finally learned out of that and have applied in the more recent years is the fact that you do have to not only validate it, but I will never sell a course again that I have not pre-sold.

And with this last Canva course iteration that I pushed out in November of last year, I had a founding launch, and I told myself, I need to sell 10 spots before I'm going to lift a finger creating this. Because if I can't pre-sell 10 spots when I can get this started and out to them in three weeks time, then I am not going to do this again.

And I think I sold 25 and then opened it for a regular launch after that and sold a bunch more. Point being, I just refuse anymore to invest the effort and the energy and the attention and my heart into something that people don't want. 

And not to take it personally. It's not personal. And if they're not responding to it to the level that they're prepared to put some money down on it, then you need to step back and assess why.

It's probably not the whole topic, but is there something more specific that they want to be learning from you? What do they want? 

And listen to them. Don't take it personally. Don't be defensive about the fact that they don't like your idea because you may be right, but you're going to be broke. 

So I think my biggest mistake was continuing to try to teach something that people did not want to learn.

And as far as the website course goes, I finally had the realization that the audience who was the right fit for that course, who would spend the money on the course and my coaching time and also invest the time in it, unfortunately, they weren't going to invest the time in it. The people who were prepared to invest anything in it for a course wanted it to just be done for them. It would have been a very, very small segment of an audience of people who were prepared to put a certain amount of money into taking a course who also were prepared to spend the time and do it themselves.

And I just turned around instead and decided, you know what, we're going to use all that content to build an audience for people who then want me to have my agency do some done-for-you services instead. So it wasn't a waste, but it was hard to accept that they didn't want what I had, and that's okay. And I just needed to take my time and my expertise and put it somewhere else.

Kendra Corman:

I think that's fantastic. I definitely think that learning about your audience and what they want is key to, again, any business. What you're talking about translates everywhere. People willing to put their money behind this great idea, fantastic. I love that. 

So before we close out, I always ask this question, and I love superheroes and sci-fi and-

Brenda Cadman:

Listen, I'm a Marvel fan, so I'm all into the MCU. So this is my jam.

Kendra Corman:

So what superpower would you choose for yourself if you could?

Brenda Cadman:

I gave this some thought, and I think it's an answer you're probably going to hear from a lot of people. Really teleportation would be a wonderful thing to have right now for obvious reasons. 

So I live on the east coast of Canada now. I'm from the west coast. My family is still there. I have not seen my mother or my sister in three years, and the ability to teleport back to Vancouver to see them would be a wonderful thing indeed. 

And it's not the first time I've thought about that. If I could have that superpower, that would be pretty awesome. And also if there's a superpower that could help my daughter fall asleep within 10 minutes, that would be a really cool one to have as well. We have not conquered that yet.

Kendra Corman:

There's probably a lot of parents that want that one, for sure.

Brenda Cadman:

Magical superpowers. That's what I need.

Kendra Corman:

Well, I love to travel. Travel's my favorite thing. And my husband, he hates to travel. And it's not that he doesn't like exploring and seeing new things. He hates getting there, so teleportation would be very, very cool for us too.

Brenda Cadman:

I know they say it's the journey that counts, but I don't enjoy the journey part of a trip.

Kendra Corman:

My husband's the same way. Well, thank you so much, Brenda, for your time and your openness and your willingness to share with us. And thank you so much for being a guest on Imperfect Marketing.

 I do want, again, listeners, check the show notes. We've got some great links of things from Brenda that will help you better use Canva and connect with her on social media.

Brenda Cadman:

Thanks, Kendra.