Imperfect Marketing

Episode 44: Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Growing Your Business

October 20, 2022 Kendra Corman
Imperfect Marketing
Episode 44: Overcoming Limiting Beliefs and Growing Your Business
Show Notes Transcript

This Imperfect Marketing episode is for you if you...

  • feel that you are not enough
  • think that everyone knows what you have to share
  • have tried a new marketing tactic, only to give up after a week

I had a fantastic conversation with Michelle Vroom, Small Business Marketing Strategist, about our limiting beliefs. She shares how she helps her clients overcome these and how she helps them grow and improve their marketing strategy.

We discuss the importance of building a community and organic relationships. Focus on adding value to your community, and business will come to you. Show up consistently and build your know, like, and trust factor. I've said this 100 times, but again: do not compare your beginning to someone else's middle.

How have you overcome your limiting beliefs and learned to recognize your worth? Let me know; I would love to hear from you at!

Related Links:

Michelle's Website
Michelle's Facebook Community
Kendra's Free Downloadable on Identifying Your Target Audience
Email Marketing Isn't Dead, Learn Your List Building Style!

Social Media as a Publishing Platform with Patty K
Embracing Peaceful Confidence with Jen
Niching Down in LinkedIn with Brenda Meller

Want to grow your email list? I just released my 7 Steps to 1000 Subscribers Guide that will help you achieve your goals. Ready?

Get it here.

Kendra Corman:

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I am very excited to be joined today by Michelle, who has always been a Type A high achiever. I can relate!

And like many women, when she became a mom, the high achieving part of her DNA didn't go away, but she did need to shift to fit into the life that she wanted for her family.

Michelle helps women entrepreneurs achieve their first 100k. So very exciting stuff! Thank you so much for joining me, I appreciate it!

Michelle Vroom:

Thanks for having me!

Kendra Corman:

So let me ask you that, so one of the things that you like to talk about is overcoming limiting beliefs. I'm a big believer that as women we have a lot of limiting beliefs.

So tell me a little bit more about that. How do you help women entrepreneurs overcome these limiting beliefs?

Michelle Vroom:

I think we, it's just in our DNA, right? Like we always question ourselves, doubt ourselves, feel like we have to please others. And so when I think about the top, I'll say like three limiting beliefs that tend to keep women from getting to that first 100k, number one undercharging, significantly undercharging.

And what is under charging really? It's a symptom of the greater limiting belief, which is under valuing what you do. And I think this is where imposter syndrome tends to come in.

I also see a lot of women who are just so good at what they do that they feel like it's too basic, right? They feel like everybody knows what, you know, I'm talking about like everybody can solve this problem themselves. They could go Google it.

And so we don't really value just how incredible our expertise is and truly how it changes someone's, you know, business or life because it's second nature to us.

And so I think there's a couple of layers to that, but that's what leads to a lot of women under charging. I would count myself in that camp before I hit 100k. One of the biggest kind of roadblocks that I ran into was I had so many different clients and I was under charging for all of them.

I think at one point I had you know, 10 or 12 different clients and was barely making like a thousand dollars a month. So I'll let you do the math. I'm not gonna do it here, but I'll let you do the math on just what I was charging, right?

So that I would say is the first one. I think the second one is what I will call like fear of success, right? Like if I make more money, what is that gonna cost me?

Can I handle it? Can I sustain it?

I remember probably in like the first year and a half of business, I was actually really sabotaging my sales calls because it was like, well if the client says yes, then I have to deliver. And what if I can't? I would much rather, I mean I imagine every single person listening to this podcast has integrity, right? Like out of integrity.

We don't wanna make a promise that we feel like maybe we can't totally keep, right? Even if we know we're good at what we do. I do think this shows up. I actually think the more like good you are what you do, the more it shows up, right?

The more Type A you are, the more of a perfectionist you are. That's what happens. and then I would say the third thing is really like over delivering.

Like giving our clients way too much because we think that that's gonna please them. We think that that's gonna keep them around to the detriment of our own marketing. A lot of women prioritize client delivery, right? And client service over their own marketing.

I think it needs to be the other way around. Not to say that we don't do a good job for our clients, but if you are not actively marketing and you're just focused on over delivering for your clients, what happens if that client doesn't renew? What happens if they leave? Right?

And so I see a lot of women really struggling to get to six figures as a result of that. I guess I'll add like a bonus one, which is I think our perfectionist nature, like this belief that everything has to be perfect, right?

It's either all or nothing. Either it's perfect and everything's working out, or it's all crap and I suck, right? Like that ultimately is what I think comes up for a lot of women as well. And feeling like perfect is the only way to get things done is the only way to have success.

There are so many other layers I could go into, but those are the, I think the big ones that I tend to see come up among my clients on the journey to six figures.

Kendra Corman:

Wow. Okay. So I could definitely cry because I'm like, "Oh my God, that's, that was me. That was me."

Actually, it still is me cuz I'm still under charging and providing extra value. That's part of why I started my company, was to provide that value because I felt that the other agencies that I was working with at the time were overcharging and that small businesses couldn't have access to people with my level of talent and things like that.

So I specifically designed it so that I was under charging and over delivering and I'm still over delivering, unfortunately. Well fortunately for my clients cuz they, they do value that to a point. I get it. But I mean, I was lucky I hit 100k my first year. I've been in business for eight years.

But yeah, I mean, I'm still making or earning less. I think people would be surprised to see how much I'm, I'm how little I make in the end because I'm constantly providing that value and or over providing that value. And it's very much true.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah. What's interesting too is when you say like, like, and I know what you provide is extremely valuable, but I think we think that if we over deliver it increases the value. I don't know that that's always true.

And I'm remembering, I don't know why this sticks out to me, but I'm remembering my days working for an agency. So I worked for a PR agency for many years. If anyone is from the agency world, like you know how it is, it's like ingrained you just bill, bill, bill, bill, bill, right? Like billable hours, billable hours, track your time.

If you think about a client in the shower, like you bill them, right? Like that, you, that's just what you did. And what's interesting is I remember we actually had Lysol as a client and we were over delivering so much for them.

Like it was insane how much we were over delivering and we thought that it was gonna please them, that it was gonna get them better results and make them happier. And they ended up like letting us go. And it's, it was just a memory to me very early on of, you know what, over delivering and bending over backwards does not always equal a good client relationship, Right? Does not always lead to value in the client's mind.

And I just think that's so interesting. It doesn't mean, again that we don't do good work. I think that there's also this other end of the spectrum not to get on a tangent in the online world where it's like, don't contact me, don't use the services. Like I'm gonna set boundaries and not really like, provide things for my clients.

And I don't believe in that either. I tend more toward the over-delivering as well just like you. But I do think there needs to be, like I think over delivering almost leads to more fluff that they don't need and more distractions versus what do they actually need and how can we challenge ourselves to help our clients get even more efficient, faster results.

Kendra Corman:

I love that! I really like taking out the fluff cuz I do think that your career act, that if we can streamline it, we can still provide the value, but we don't have to over deliver. And you were saying that over delivering doesn't always lead to happier clients.

I would actually even go as far to say that over delivering can lead to you or me our unhappiness and almost feeling, we feel resentful about continuing to work on it and stuff like that. I just did all this extra stuff and how am I gonna work this in and, you know, where is that gonna go?

And I think that that's so true. I was recently talking to my business coach about a couple of things and she goes, she goes, "Well what are you thinking about charging?" For what I was putting together.

And I was like, "Well, I was thinking $250."

She's like, "I'm thinking 500."

She's like, "No. Like you, you need to think about all of the value that your experience brings to the table. You know, you don't just pay $20 because it's $20 worth of time or something along those lines. They're also paying for the fact that you have 20 years of experience."

Michelle Vroom:

Oh, a thousand person. That could continue to compound by the way, every year you're in business. Like, I remember I had a client one time I was on a call with her and I literally, like, she had a breakthrough in like five minutes. I was like, that was almost too easy. Like maybe I shouldn't be charging this.

And then like she literally said to me, those five minutes were worth every single dollar because she was able to get a faster breakthrough, a faster result. Right?

And I, and that was, that stood out to me because before, you know, up until that point, I was very much based in like hourly rates. How much time did it take? Like all of that.

And I think that while that can be helpful, if you stay in that place, it's almost like you start like overvaluing your time and the amount of hours that you spend and undervaluing the expertise to your point that you've acquired over however many years.

Kendra Corman:

Well, and the other thing that you mentioned that I think is really key is making the assumption that what we know is known by everybody and that it's too simple.

You know, it's just, it's crazy, but I mean, I know I do it all the time. I'm on a, when I was on a group coaching call and I was talking about something and I was like, "I thought everybody knew that OK."

Michelle Vroom:

Yep. No,

Kendra Corman:

You take for granted what we know

Michelle Vroom:

We do take for granted, even if they do know it and could go Google it, knowing is different than implementing. When you start to go implement something, there are roadblocks that come up. There are obstacles that come up that you cannot plan for, that you cannot, like you need that support, right?

To be able, like someone who's seasoned, who's been there, who's experienced that roadblock. Like there's a lot of value in that. And I think we avoid that because it's like, well, I don't want there to be any roadblocks. Like everything should be perfect when I'm working with a client.

But remember, your clients are also hiring you to get support during the roadblocks. Like, they don't expect you to know every single thing. And even if they know so much, it's like knowing is not that valuable anymore. Like know, like we can know a lot. We have access to so much information.

What I don't see enough people doing is actually implementing and doing it consistently and paying attention to what works and what doesn't work and then like adjusting and tweaking from there, which is what marketing is all about, right?

Kendra Corman:


Michelle Vroom:

Doing it right the first time.

Kendra Corman:

It's imperfect. Hence the title of the podcast, Imperfect Marketing. If it was perfect, I wouldn't need, I wouldn't have a job ever.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah, we wouldn't need to be talking right now.

Kendra Corman:

No, but I think, yeah, I think that it's very important to not view, and I like how you brought up the other end. The people with the very strict boundaries. Because I feel like they're not even delivering what they're supposed to be delivering. Because they have, you know what I mean? They're not delivering any value to a large extent. I don't think that that's the right way to go either.

So there's gotta be a happy medium and I think we have to find it. How do you work with your clients to help them figure out what that is for them?

Michelle Vroom:

Well, you know, I think that number one, it starts with like, what are your values, right? Like what do you actually value in your business? Like how do you wanna conduct your business? Like what does that look like to you?

Because I think we all need to be operating out of, you know, honesty and integrity around that. And then it's more so like what does, like for example in my mastermind where I'm supporting women in creating a group program, right?

So moving from serving one on one clients into one to many, and one of the things we do is literally list out like all the things they need to know to achieve whatever that desired outcome is from the program. And then I have them go back through that list and cut out like, what is the fluff? What is the stuff that maybe makes you feel good but doesn't need to be in there, right?

Because when you can remove that and you're just focused on a couple of core things that are gonna help them get there, then I think like the value that we provide is in the support and the, you know, kind of bringing them through those things and almost like anticipating what they might need and what obstacles they might face. So I think doing exercises like that are super helpful. and then at the end of the day, like boundaries.

Yes, boundaries need to exist in a client relationship, but for the good of the client and of you. I also have my clients do this, this exercise about whose responsibility is what, right?

Because we do have a responsibility, okay? We have a responsibility. And I'm talking to both, you know, people who are like coaches or do one on one on one work and people who do done for you work.

So if you're a service provider and you do the work for your clients, what is your responsibility?

Well, your responsibility is to create an environment where your client can be successful. But what it's not is to do everything for your client. And so I think even going through that kind of an exercise and understanding like, what is my responsibility? What can I control? What do I—where can I stay in my lane and where does a client need to stay in their lane?

And if we're both working really hard and giving 110% in both of our lanes, like that's where the magic happens. And usually that's not happening. It's usually the client is giving, you know, 20% and we're giving like 80% and we're exhausted, we're burnt out.

There's the resentment that you talked about. And then if we have resentment in the client relationship—I'm sorry, I think resentment is the biggest killer to any kind of result.

Because when we have resentment, we're not gonna put forth our best work, right? We're not gonna be able to be objective the way we treat the client is gonna change.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. It's scary, right? It's, I mean, it's a dangerous place to go. And if you're not charging enough, you can get there pretty quickly. I mean, it's a dangerous place to be.

Michelle Vroom:

You'll be there, everybody gets there because everyone has to learn.

Kendra Corman:

I've had, I've had those seasons, you know, it ebbs and flows for sure.

So alright, so let's talk a little bit more about what you do when people are trying to get visible. So the limiting beliefs keep them from showing up and getting visible.

Michelle Vroom:


Kendra Corman:

Like we've talked a lot about the overcoming beliefs or limiting beliefs and I again, agree wholeheartedly with all of those cuz I think I could check every single box and example that you listed.

What's limiting people from getting visible? Is it, how is it holding them back?

Michelle Vroom:

Couple of things. Number one, we feel like the market is so saturated. How in the world am I gonna stand out? There's so many people who do what I do, right?

I think that's also why people complain about like the algorithm and engagement. It's like I can't get visible everything's, you know, against me. Like it's too hard. There's too much noise, right? I think that's, that's one.

I think the second one is just fear of failing, right? And failure meaning like, I put out a post and no one comments or I don't get any engagement. I launch something and no one buys. I put out something and someone disagrees with it. Right? Or like, trolls me online.

You know what I'm saying? I think there's a lot of like fear of failure, whatever failure means for the individual who has that fear.

I also think that people again don't really value their expertise. They don't feel like they have much to share. They feel like an imposter. They don't really wanna put themselves out there. Because if I do, then again, like what is it going to cost me? Right?

And so I think that there's a lot of layers to that piece when it comes to marketing. I also think that we have this like, I don't know, it's instant gratification, right?

We expect that everything we do is going to work immediately and instantly. And if it doesn't, we did something wrong, right? We messed up. And I see a lot of women who are on the right track burning things down because they think that they did something wrong when in reality they just need to give their marketing more time to work. Like, we underestimate how much time it does take for marketing to work.

Like I will tell people, and I know my clients probably don't like when I say this, but I'm gonna be honest with them. Like, if you are at a minimum of 90 days show up, offer one offer, talk to people, put out your message.

Like market consistently for a minimum of 90 days. And even then that's probably too little, right? We need to go probably another 90 days before we make changes.

People will do it for a week, they'll do it for a month and it's like, "Nope, it's not working. Let's go. I'm gonna offer something else. I'm going to change up my messaging, I'm gonna change up my marketing platform, I'm gonna change my entire strategy."

And you have no clue what was actually gonna work and what what was already working. We just maybe don't always see it, right? It's not always like hanging out right in front of us.

Kendra Corman:

Now I agree with that 100%. People do not give it anything enough time.

Michelle Vroom:

We're impatient. You know why? Cuz we're trying to prove, because we doubt to some degree there is some level of doubt that this is going to work, right?

Or, and or, we know that success is possible and that it's inevitable, but we have a certain timeline that we are going off of. It's like a better work within this time, right?

So much pressure is around our expectations and our timeline. And if it doesn't work, what does that mean about us? It's like we're in such a rush to prove things, you know? And I think the proof to us is in the clients and the money, but to me, that's not the proof, right?

That's like an out output of you trusting yourself enough to know that like, you're gonna figure it out, you're gonna keep going. There is no other option for you. Like for me, there was no other option, right?

It didn't mean that things always worked well. And this is coming from a marketer, right? It didn't mean that like I always, you know, I've had so many failed things, it's unreal, right?

But deep down, I know that this is my only option. There is no other option for it not to work. And I will always figure it out. And those two thoughts, those two beliefs are what has led me to six figures, are what has led me to multiple six figures the last three years in a row—while raising children, right? While growing a family.

I mean, we want the fancy like sexy answer, right?

Of like, "Oh, I manifested it," or "ooh, it just happened."

Or, "Oh, I manifested $10,000 overnight."

We don't know what went into all of the stuff leading up to that.

Kendra Corman:

And I really do like that. When I was starting my business again, eight over eight years ago, I was actually. I interviewed a couple of people that I knew had started their businesses not too much before I did.

And I sat down with one of 'em and she goes, "The one thing that somebody told me is she goes, It was gonna take me 18 months to really become successful."

And she's like, I told my friend, she goes, she was telling her friend, she's like, "I don't have 18 months. I've got two kids going off to college. You know, I'm the breadwinner of the family. I have five kids, I have all this stuff going on. I don't have 18 months to not be able to pay the mortgage. Like I need to get this going way faster than this. I'm gonna fig—"

And then to herself, she said, "I'm gonna figure out how to make this go faster than that."

And she told me that she finally felt, was feeling successful and where she needed to be. And she looked at the calendar and it was almost exactly 18 months.

That's when the business started to come back to her. That's when it really started to grow. And they started to really see all of the improvements that, that they had. And I just thought that was so insightful.

And it's interesting because every single person that I know that started a business, it's that 18 month mark where people start coming back that you really start to get known in the marketplace that you've been there long enough.

Again, if it's one to one work, if it's a store, whatever it happens to be, it takes about 18 months for you to sink in and for people to know that you're sticking around. And I think that that was just really a neat insight.

So yeah, at least 90 days for any individual marketing campaign, because we're inundated with so many messages, we need time for those messages to sink in and to work, right? It's just crazy.

Michelle Vroom:

I could not agree more. And this is, it totally goes against everything everyone's saying online. I mean, I've been in business six and a half years and I have seen a shift toward just instant, instant, instant, instant. It has to work instantly.

Kendra Corman:

What do you mean I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna post my TikTok video and make millions?

Michelle Vroom:

Right? Right? I don't have an audience handed to me overnight? What do you mean I can't just snap my fingers and get a client?

I just, oh my gosh, I hope, I hope people listening to this, like if this is the only thing they hear, I think this will make them successful because they'll know I'm on the right track and nothing needs to change. Just giving it more time and releasing the pressure of those expectations.

Like if you're like, "I need to make money now, I can't wait 18 months!"

And that is truly your reality, then you need to—I mean, I'm not gonna tell someone how to figure that out, that's up to them and their family.

But like, get a job, figure something out so that you can give your business this, the space and room to breathe, you know?

Kendra Corman:

Yep. It's no, it's just so, so true.

Michelle Vroom:

I'm getting fired up about it.

Kendra Corman:

No, but again, it's so accurate and it's just, it's the reality. I was actually, again, I was talking to somebody else recently about we were talking about where we were in our paths.

And I always love the quote, do not compare your beginning to someone else's middle. Because when we get that comparisonitis, we really start to have—that's where you start to have issues. That's where you start to feel that failure even though you're being hugely successful.

So, like, I just recently launched one of my online courses. I launched one in February. They were small groups, both of them.

Well, I'm using air quotes, I made money. I mean not, you know, a ton or anything like that, but I definitely brought in more than I spent dollar wise, not a ton.

But again, it's building and you all have to start—everybody has to start somewhere. I think that that's key to remember that people forget and we like to compare our beginning to other people's middles and then say, well it's not working, but I don't, yeah.

So I don't think that's true. But again, gotta just again, set your expectations and look at yourself and how far you've come. Cuz a lot of times, again, you know, we don't see the forest through the trees.

Michelle Vroom:


Kendra Corman:

Because we're so close to it. And if you look at all you've achieved and what you've done over time, it's huge.

Michelle Vroom:

You have to celebrate it. I call it like the mile markers, right? It's like when you're driving on the highway, you see mile markers on the road. That's what tells you that you're going in the right direction.

And I think right now to everyone listening, like what are those mile markers? If you have to pause this episode and go write them down right now, like go do it. Unless you're driving, of course!

Because I think that like if you, there are mile markers present for you right now, you just aren't focused on them because you think that it should happen faster because someone told you that it should happen faster.

Kendra Corman:

Yep. Agreed. 100%. Okay. That's just, I think that that's fantastic and I really do hope that people realize, again, do not compare your beginning to someone else's middle.

You know, they might be making millions or whatever else they're saying that they're doing. You can—and if that's your goal—you can get there, but it's gonna take time.

Cuz guess what? It took them time. They didn't start there either. I think that's really important.

So let's talk a little bit about pre-selling clients before the sales call. I know that that's another thing that you work with your clients on. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah, so one of the things that has been so powerful for me, right? In getting to six figures without feeling like I'm constantly having to chase clients. Like, I think a lot of people feel this like panic of chasing and I've gotta just get somebody, you know, while they're hot.

What has helped me is really creating my own community. So for me, that was a Facebook group, right? Where I could build relationships because I will also say that, you know, I don't—

I'll say that the market is changing though. I think this has always been the case, right? Where people are taking longer in some cases to make buying decisions. They're doing more research, they're doing more investigation.

And a lot of people like to say, "Well, it's because of the economy and recessions coming and nobody's buying and nobody's going to buy in."

Like these dooms day things, right? I don't buy into that. Nope. Pun intended. How many times can I say buy in a sentence?

I don't buy into that because people will always buy in any climate, it's just their buying behavior changes, right? And so they're doing more homework, they're doing more research, they're weighing their decisions, they're weighing their investments. They're not just like jumping on it, right?

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I literally just wrote a post about this the other day. So this is like fresh in my mind, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

What I think we need to do is adapt to their changing behavior. And so what that means is there needs to be more pre-selling happening, right? You know, positioning yourself as an authority figure as somebody who knows the solution to their problem and can help them solve it.

As somebody who, you know, just basically is creating demand for your offer before they even buy. So that when they're in that decision making process, you are the person that's top of mind for them.

And so for me, doing that as a result of my community and giving people that space to be able to, you know, get to know me and build a relationship even if they weren't ready to buy yet, that has led to so much consistency, which I think is what people are really after, right?

They want the consistency. That's what my people want. And that's what's gonna get you to six figures. Now, when I say consistency, I don't mean like every month you have to get the same amount of clients, make the same amount money.

What I mean is just over the span of a year there's consistency, right? In terms of like bringing in clients.

And so I think that knowing that some months are gonna be higher, some, some will be lower. So for me, having that community, being able to support them in that research stage, right? Being able to create that demand of like, "Oh my gosh, Michelle knows what she's talking about. I really like Michelle, I like her, I trust her."

Right? Building that credibility, like I was always in it for the long haul, right? We just talked about instant gratification. Like I knew that that was going to be a long term thing. And I was, I was ready and prepared to do that.

I wasn't just going into that community and starting that community being like, "Where's my client now?"

Right? Like, I saw that this was going to be number one how I wanted to market because relationships matter. Relationships are everything.

But also like this is going to build and add momentum over time. And so that's what I mean by pre-selling, right? You obviously need to grow a community. You need to grow an audience to some degree.

And I'm, again, for me that was a Facebook group. It could be anywhere, right? But you need to have a place where you can build that relationship because people are not necessarily gonna come in and buy right away.

So is your thought focused on like, where's my next client? Or how can I support these people and help them make a decision, right? Whenever that decision is. So, because I've always had that frame of mind, I've always been able to convert, like I've literally had people say no and come back and buy because I maintain the relationship. It wasn't a no forever.

It wasn't a "Oh, they said no, now let's check them off my list and let me just focus on me and what I want."

It was, I'm gonna build relationships with all of these people trusting that at any given point. Like they're at different places on their journey. So some people are ready, some people are not. But if you nurture both audiences, that's where the consistency comes in.

If you just focus on who's ready now and you move right from growing your audience to selling, immediately you leave out the opportunity to pre-sale and build those relationships, which in today's day and age, like if you're doing that actively, you are ahead of the game.

If you're not, no worries. You can get on board by prioritizing organic relationship building instead of these quick wins, these quick funnels. Like let me just grab a client where I can.

Maybe that works for some people, it doesn't work for me. And I know for most of my followers and my clients, it does not work for them. And that's not how they wanna run their business.

Kendra Corman:

No. And I work with a lot of high touch service based organizations and nonprofits. You have to build that know, like, and trust factor. It's key. Nobody wants to work with someone who's in it for the money.

I mean, yes, we wanna be able to pay our bills, we have different goals, but if you're out there trying to add value, it's amazing. You know how people feel differently about you.

Michelle Vroom:


Kendra Corman:

And I know that there's a lot of people that struggle with sales. You know, for me it's a four letter word. Someone asked me one time, they're like, "Well, you know, do you like selling?"

And I said, "No." I said, I don't do it.

And they're like, "What do you mean?"

And I was like, "I'm always adding value. I don't sell. If they don't want the value I have to provide, then they don't have to work with me."

But I'm like, I'm not out there selling, you know, it's not a used car salesman or anything like that that has those stereotypes associated with them. And I think it's just really important that that relationship building is key.

And I think you're right. It doesn't matter how you go about doing it. Is it a Facebook group? It can be a podcast because they can start to feel a relationship with you with that. They can respond to you. You've got emails and other things that you can use to, to continue that conversation.

Somebody was asking me recently, which I thought was interesting, they said, "Well how do you define doing social media well?"

Cuz they were, they were talking about how many channels they should be on. And I said, "Well I wouldn't add anymore until you're doing one well"

They said, "Well what's that mean?"

And I said, "Well that means commenting on other people's posts. That means engaging with other people's stories. That means responding to the comments that they send you. That means spending time in that platform and engaging."

Cuz you have to, I think social media is very much you have to give to get. And if you're not giving and investing time into that platform, you're not gonna really get anything out of it. And there, I think there's two schools of thought. I recently interviewed Patty K on the podcast, Imperfect Marketing and I think her episode went live on October 13th.

And when I was talking with her, she views social media as a content distribution platform, for lack of—a publishing platform. And I think if that's your view of the platform, that's okay.

You're not necessarily gonna get that same level of engagement. But again, I think it depends on your target and things like that as to what you're trying to do. But if you're looking to monetize or get clients from social media, you have to take it to that next level.

Otherwise it just ends up being what I call baseline content that just shows that you're real in case you're hiring or someone's checking up on you and things like that. And they wanna see if you're real and in business.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah, it's like your storefront, but like there's not a deeper layer there, right? Like social media I believe is the vehicle for building relationships. And you're right, not everybody wants that and that's fine.

But in today's world, especially as people's buying habits change, I think it would be, I think it's in everyone's best interest to consider how they can have more relationship based marketing, more high touch marketing and personalized marketing. Cause that's what people want.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, they definitely do. So let's talk about Facebook. So I believe that Facebook groups cannot be matched on any other platform unless you're paying for it. And I don't think that it's matched on the paid platforms for the most part.

Michelle Vroom:

It's not. Nope.

Kendra Corman:

You need to be places where people are comfortable going. And again, Facebook is a place for that.

I was even talking to like my college students that I teach and I asked them who was on Facebook and two of them were on Facebook. One for family reasons and then the other one is for the groups.

My husband is on Facebook for the groups. Because it's unmatched anywhere. But there's a lot of people out there that are saying Facebook is dead or dying.

And I don't necessarily know if I agree with them. I do feel that different audiences are attracted to different platforms. You should be where your audience is. But Facebook still has a billion unique users in what, every day or every month on their platform.

Michelle Vroom:

I mean, I'm gonna check while I, while we're talking about this to make sure I'm giving the accurate numbers, but it's even higher than that. It is, let me see, what was the—2.9 billion monthly active users? That was as of Q2 in 2022.

Kendra Corman:


Michelle Vroom:

Like, okay, can I just repeat that number? 2.9 billion. Do we really think people are leaving Facebook?

What's ironic too is the people who are complaining about Facebook who being dead or do we get on Facebook? Like the irony is not lost on me.

Kendra Corman:

No, I agree. And I think I was listening to another podcast recently where they were saying email marketing is dead. Or they're asking, you know, people say email marketing is dead.

And they're like, someone else said, we've been talking about that for 15 years. It's not dead. Decisions in the business to business marketplace are still made in the inbox.

Michelle Vroom:

People who are saying that things are dead, I'm gonna ruffle some feathers here, and I'm okay with that. People who are saying that something is dead, either an entire platform or an entire strategy are not the people you should be listening to.

They are the—cause when we say something's dead, what are we saying? There's no more opportunity. It's done. They're focused on where there's no opportunity. Like how is that gonna help you in your business where you're focused, where there's no opportunity.

Instead, I like to say what opportunity does exist? Do platforms change? Does the algorithm change? Sure, it's always been changing, right?

We need like—marketing and business change and evolve. I know some people would love to just set it and forget it. Then you probably shouldn't be a business owner cuz that is not the way to run a business. That is not the way to market.

And if you're sitting around saying something's dead, I'm willing to bet there are pieces of your business that are probably dead because you are just focused on what's not working and what I can't do, then what I can do and am I willing to adapt and evolve? If you're not, then your business won't. Simple as that.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. I mean people evolve, people change, interests change.

Michelle Vroom:

Change. Yep.

Kendra Corman:

But you need, Yeah, I mean, but again, 2.9 billion unique active users every month.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah. Does it mean the content that you use to post in your group, maybe, you know, the exact same content always works or always gets, you know, a certain amount of visibility.

No, you've gotta be willing to change things up, right? But groups themselves, like what are, it's not about the group, it's not about Facebook, it's not about a specific platform.

What are people's desires? To be in relationship with one another. To be in a community to feel seen, to feel heard. Has that gone away? No, that has only gotten more prevalent if you're paying attention. So the people who are complaining are the ones who are doing just that—complaining.

And if you are a driven person who is hungry for results and relentless about getting them, I would steer very clear of those messages and of those people, because there is nothing but emptiness behind those messaging—those messages.

Like nothing but just lost hope. And I think that is the exact opposite message that should be out there, because we live in a world where we have so much more access to our ideal clients than we've ever had before.

The fact that you can even create a Facebook group, even if your group has 200 people, right? The fact that you can have 200 potential clients in your group.

Like have we forgotten about how amazing that is? Like why can't we have gratitude for that? Cause if you have gratitude for that, then guess what?

The creative side of your brain's gonna be more open. The side that sees more possibilities is gonna be open. I know I'm gonna ruffle feathers saying that, but I'm okay with that. Cause I think it's a message everyone needs to hear.

Kendra Corman:

No, and I agree with it. I think that there's so many people out there hawking different phrases and stuff like that to stand out to talk about how they're different. And it really confuses a lot of small business owners and solo entrepreneurs.

I just had a VIP day a couple like, about a month ago or something with somebody who didn't know where to start. And so we created a plan, we got her a start. She called me back and said, you know that after that, what, after that VIP session where we identified where her audience is and what they're doing and—and it happens to be LinkedIn—that that's where most of the people are are shopping for her stuff.

And when we were talking, she said, "I just went to a networking meeting and I was sitting at a table with these two other people that were telling me how amazing Instagram is for them and for their business or organization and that Instagram stories are the way to go."

And she goes, "I would've gone home and said I have to get on Instagram right now. I would have started to divert my attention from where my audience truly is and where they wanna be interacted with, and I would've added one more thing to my plate. Not done either of them."

Well and like, because that's what I heard. And so she was reacting because she didn't have a solid plane and hadn't thought through everything the way that she needed to. Cuz again, everybody's looking for the quick win, right?

So, and not that she was doing that, but she didn't have that guidance along the way. And I think that that's so important and just so key. Don't listen to anybody and everybody, you know, just because it was on the internet does not mean it's true. I always like to say that.

Michelle Vroom:


Kendra Corman:

It's really important to trust people that are trustworthy and again, that building that relationship piece, showing that you're into adding value is so important.

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah, I have, I mean honestly like for every person who says a Facebook group is dead, I'm like, I've made over like half a million dollars from my group in the last four years. Like it's far from dead, right?

Like every person who says instead, you will also find so many people who are having success. I also just wanna say one thing that I think is gonna be very hopefully encouraging for people and like a breath of fresh air.

Your ideal clients are probably, people rarely use one social platform. And that's it. Like take your client for example, I'm willing to bet that some of those people are also using Instagram.

The key, and you said this when you mentioned like what you guys covered is where are they thinking about and looking for solutions to your problem? Cause it may not be on every platform.

They're probably on multiple platforms. Like I think most people are on more than one platform, right? And so if you are in doubt, just pick something and start, like to your point Kendra, like just start with one platform, master it, move on.

Because once you start, then you're gonna collect data instead of living in your own head and like googling the information and what everybody says because you'll always find different opinions on both sides.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, no, and I think again, it's where are they thinking about your stuff?

Michelle Vroom:


Kendra Corman:

And where, where are you comfortable? If you're gonna start, pick where you're comfortable,

Michelle Vroom:

Both of those things. Where do you like to show up? Like for me, I love showing up in a group. I love going live, I love talking to people. Like that is my jam. That is how I build relationships offline. So of course online's gonna model it. You absolutely have to because again, if, if your people are everywhere and we have all this opportunity, then the question you just asked is exactly what people should be asking.

People should be like, oh my gosh, it's not a matter of like, will I pick the right channel? Cuz there is no one right channel I get to pick based on how I wanna market. Like what a freeing concept versus this is dead and this is dead and I have to pick the right one. Or else like.

I think that pressure right, is what causes a lot of people to stay in the space of overanalyzing or picking something and then backing out and trying something else.

You know, that's why everybody raced to Clubhouse, right? That's why everybody's racing to TikTok. And I'm not saying anything against those platforms, it's just we always wanna race to the, to the newest, brightest, shiniest object because we think that's what's gonna get us ahead.

We think that's what's gonna get us that quick win. You know what the quickest win is, is sticking with one thing. And to your point, given that 18 months a go right? Like build that audience and get that traction,

Kendra Corman:

It's key, it's—

Michelle Vroom:

That will be a quicker win for you. Lke, I want everyone to really hear that that will be a quicker win for you than racing to the next thing.

Kendra Corman:

Yep. 100%. 100%. You gotta do something. Well and I mean again, that goes to like niching down with your audience. The more specific you are about who you serve, the better you are too because you're speaking directly to them.

I mean, when you were talking about, you know, at the beginning about overcoming limiting beliefs and what some of those are and what causes some of those, I was like, yep, yep. I was nodding my head.

Female entrepreneurs. Solo entrepreneurs, that's who you target, that's what we're doing. I mean that, that factor builds a know, like, and trust factor I think almost immediately because I know you understand me and that's key.

So having that specific audience, being where they're at, being where they're at consistently, I think is really important.

Michelle Vroom:

Oh, a thousand percent, right? Cause it, how can you build trust if you go dark for a while. If you dip in and dip out, you're not gonna be that safe constant for them. And people like that safe bet right. They like constant. We, we want that. That's what we all want.

So how can you demonstrate that in your marketing?

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, no, that's great. So we'll move on to the next two questions that I ask every guest on every episode.

So first I wanna talk to you, what's your biggest marketing lesson learned? This, the show is called Imperfect Marketing. We've covered that. Marketing is not perfect by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

What what was the biggest lesson that you learned along the way or have you seen from a client and and taught them?

Michelle Vroom:

Yeah. Can I share two? Cause I have—

Kendra Corman:

Of course. Yes. I love lessons learned.

Michelle Vroom:

The first was a lesson that I experienced. And I'm gonna share this cause it was painful in the moment, but so like it, it changed the trajectory of my business a year into business. I lost three clients in one day. Literally almost 90% of my work, my roster, because obviously I hadn't filled up a significant roster yet.

They were all for like random reasons, right? Nothing that I could have had control over. But it was devastating. And I remember thinking, and I was also at the time pregnant with my second child two months out from giving birth.

So at the time I was doing done for you work. So I'm not gonna go sign a retainer client, I'm about to like have a baby, right? So I felt like, oh my gosh, I should just shut things down. Like literally, I remember thinking that. I didn't obviously I looked at what can I do here?

And ended up getting a short term client that turned into a long-term client, which was the best thing ever. But what that taught me is sort of like going back to what we were talking at the beginning.

Like, was I really focused on marketing my business or was I focused on being an employee to those clients? As soon as they left, I was like, wow, now I see the value of building that community. I see the value of, of that, you know, being in control, right?

Cause we all wanna be in control. And while we can't control when and how a client comes to you, what we can control is are we building that community? Are we building those relationships? Do I have a, I'll use the word pipeline. I know that's so corporate, but do I have a pipeline of people who are constantly getting to know me, right?

So that completely changed the trajectory of my business and now I teach other women how to do that, right? As they, as they worked towards six figures. 

The second lesson was one that I learned a little bit later after hitting six figures, which was you can be, you can market messy and get clients. Like I did a launch that I didn't totally believe in and I had to like get my brain on board. And it was such a messy process and I ended up signing clients. And I remember thinking like, your messaging can be messy. Your offer can be a little messy.

Like those things can be messy and you can still sign clients. And I think that's such a beautiful thing because we wait and spend so much time waiting. So many women are costing themselves time and money because they're trying to get it perfect. They're trying to do it right.

There is no like, right, the right way to do it is to do it messy and it will still work out and now you have data to make it a little less messy next time. So I think those are like two just incredible lessons that have really served me and have really served my clients as well.

Kendra Corman:

Oh my gosh, I loved both of those a lot. So progress is always better than perfection if you keep moving forward. A friend of mine posted on Facebook, she has a sticky on her, on her monitor that says "Do B+ work."

She's trying to make sure that she's doing B+ work. Yeah. Because that's what's gonna keep her going forward, right? Otherwise she's gonna get caught in that perfection, that piece that you talked about earlier and, and not move forward.

And then, oh my gosh, I couldn't imagine losing 90% of my business in in one day that that would've totally freaked me out and I would've had the same same issue as you. And, but I agree with you.

We have a tendency to work so much in our business. We don't work on it. And I've been in business for eight years.

I started working on my business last year.

I mean, I've been turning away business for a couple of years now because I have, you know, basically a waiting list and my capacity is limited, but I wasn't really focused on working on my business because I had so much business coming in and I had so much client work to do. I didn't have time.

And you have to prioritize your business because that's what's gonna make sure that it's sustainable and that you're sustainable. And again, it goes back to, you know, feeling overwhelmed by the clients limiting you into what you're capable of doing.

But your business should be one of your top priorities, if not the top priority. You know, when it comes to your business, yes, your clients are important and doing a good job for them supports that goal of, you know, a successful business.

But you've gotta work on your business. You can't just work in it. That's just, I love that.

Okay, so the last question I ask everybody is, if you had a superpower, what would it be and why?

Michelle Vroom:

Mm-hmm. Great question. I think just like knowing what people need to hear in the moment. I feel like I'm a very empathetic person.

You know, relationships matter so much to me that I just feel like my superpower is knowing what someone needs to hear. Like being able to put myself in their shoes and not just focus on on me.

It doesn't mean I'm not human by the way. Don't do that from time to time. But I think that's what's made me a great marketer too, is just being able to do that.

If I could have a superpower that like, has nothing to do with marketing and business, it would probably be to like be invisible and be that fly on the wall and be able to like, see what's going on and below the surface. So which maybe those two kind of go hand in hand, but yeah.

Kendra Corman:

They do. That's very cool.

Well, thank you so much for your time at Michelle. We will have links to Michelle's Facebook community, her website, and other ways to get in contact with her and the show notes as usual.

I love what you had to share. I appreciate you taking the time out to share all of this information, cuz I do believe that as a whole we do have very limiting beliefs as women entrepreneurs that we need to overcome, including undercharging, undervaluing, imposter syndrome.

I've been through them all myself, as I'm sure most of our listeners have been two, and building relationships. I think that's important.

And then finally, I think one of the biggest takeaways that we both mentioned it is you can't just try something for a couple of days and say it doesn't work.

You know, give things time, give it investment. If it's your business, it's 18 months. If it's a marketing tactic, a minimum of 90 days, you got to commit to make sure that you're moving things forward.

And don't neglect your business for your clients. Make sure that you're moving everything forward. Progress is better than perfection.

So thank you again, all for joining for another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'll see you next week!