Episode 54: How do you want to be seen?

Kendra Corman

Hello and welcome back to Imperfect Marketing! 

I am super excited today I have Jennifer Palmer here. She is the founder and host of VisibilityPod, an agency that manages podcasts, helping podcasters find guests. She helps connect guests, podcasters, and more. She's also a visibility strategy coach! 

So, tell me a little bit more about VisibilityPod and what a visibility strategy coach does?

Jennifer Palmer

Kendra, thanks for having me on your podcast. First of all, I really appreciate this, I'm as excited as you are! 

So, a visibility strategy coach actually really helps you with your marketing. One of the biggest things I think I've learned is that it is really, really, important to know your conversation. 

And in marketing there, a lot of people are just out to putting everything out. It doesn't even, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't have rhyme reason. And it's, if you get clear on the conversation that you want to be having, and who you want to be having it with, it changes everything you do.

Kendra Corman

So that's an interesting perspective. So, tell me a little bit um about how you find your clients and what you cover on, because you've got the Visibility Podcast too, correct?

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, so VisibilityPod is the agency, and it actually came last out of all of the entities that are under it. because it acts as an umbrella for everything.

and it was a necessity. it was created at a necessity to manage all of the podcasts that were going on. So, we got into podcast production and podcast management, and then went just a minute here this we're hitting overwhelm. 

So, what happened was Online For Authors came first. And so that podcast grew. Ah, it's just crazy, I mean we're booked for 2 years for guests. So that's a fantastic problem to have but when you think about management and production it is a problem if you don't have an entity to help you organize. 

So that's where VisibilityPod came from, and we were doing the coaching sessions with regards to, you know, individuals whether it be a business or an author. You know, because authors, I encourage authors to run their writing and their book publishing as a business. 

So, what conversation you want to be having is there a theme where can you sit and live with regards to your creations and where you want to be in the world. What you want to, who you want to be, what you want to do, and what you want to have while you're here on this planet. 

So, the conversation becomes the clarifying factor.

Kendra Corman

And that's very interesting. So let's talk a little bit more about Online For Authors because that's where a lot of this started right? That was one of your first podcasts. What made you create that podcast?

Jennifer Palmer

So, we, what happened with Online For Authors is I went to a writer's event and took in amazing speakers and the following year I actually spoke at the event. Because what happened is I walked away from the year before going I would really like to know more about this person this person this person.

And I went to find them online, and they did not match what I saw in that room. So their presence online was a complete disconnect and I went. 

Ooh. It's a really good thing I saw them speak, because if I just came across them online, I would not engage them so I connected with the organizer of the event and asked, you know can I help your authors? How do I do this so I'm not stepping on any toes? 

And all that sort of thing. so Online for Authors launched in the room the next year that and it was called the when words collide writers retreat and conference so festival they call festival. 

And from there I started interviewing authors and I would put the interview up on YouTube, and I distributed out on the social all the social media platforms and I went. 

Okay, this podcasting stuff. What's that all about?

Well, you know what? It’s 1 more platform and it's an amazing platform. And the audience that you can reach is nothing like any other platform. 

now we were already doing the video. It wasn't hard to strip out the audio. So, we now have a YouTube presence, we have like now Spotify, oh Apple iTunes, you know all the all the podcasting. All the podcasting platforms under.

There's so many right? I'm fuffling all that. But you know we have Diezer and you have pod, I don't even remember all the names of the where all the podcast is listed big 1 right? 

So many so if I could get my words around me, I would list some of them and be more eloquent.

Kendra Corman

I can’t track them all either.

Jennifer Palmer

But reach, reach, reach, reach, reach, reach, reach, Visibility, visibility, Visibility. We could not participate in podcasting, and because of the reach it actually presented us with. So, it had to happen. It was just the next natural thing to do to increase visibility and reach.

Kendra Corman

So that's interesting. So, you started the podcast, you know, really at this conference because you know you saw this online disconnect the year before. Which is I think just so insightful to see that disconnect and then do something about it which is awesome that you did that. 

But when you're taking a look at leveraging the podcast. You know you started it to interview authors. How did you use it to grow your business and what was your business at that time?

Because the VisibilityPod came last right.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, so I was in the middle of transitioning out of various, various different things when I had gone to the conference the year before and because of that opportunity I was able to move like wholeheartedly into the Online For Authors space. 

And so at first it wasn't a podcast, at first it was just author interviews going up on YouTube. and I was interviewing people I knew, authors I knew. You know, because I was actually referred to the conference by a friend of mine who's an author so it started there.

and it was natural and then it was a year after where we had several videos already up on YouTube and it was like okay podcasting, this is next. And what's happened is being a podcaster I meet new people all time right? Like you, I'm meeting you being a guest. 

So, and this year is the first year I got into guesting. so I suggest people guest first before they become a host. get a sense of what it's like because there's a lot of work in hosting. There's a lot of work in the production side.

Guesting, what do you? You show up, you talk with someone and they're doing all the work. You know when they put it out. you're sharing. 

but the point there is that ours with online for authors if I'm talking with an author. It gives me the opportunity to get to know them better. I take a look at what they've got going on online of course. And I do an online audit before I even interview them. 

So right there I have an opportunity to say, “hey if you thought that you might like to work together here's some of the things that I noticed,” or “would you like me to share with you some of the things I noticed that might benefit you if you just knew about them.” 

and it gave me an opportunity to actually start working directly with more people now. that happened with Online for Authors. But I also have a podcast for the city that I live in, it's called We Are Calgary. I have a podcast for VisibilityPod which gives me the opportunity to give the visibility strategy coaching sessions. 

With We Are Calgary, it's more of a business and more of an event promotion and more of a feature a Calgarian end and see whether or not there's a synergy. If There's an opportunity to do joint venture, a revenue share, an affiliate relationship, those sorts of things.

and so, it was never for me to just do a one off interview wasn't anything I am not that not into it. You know really, I want to create a relationship. So what I'd like to see is that you and I, Kendra, like a year from now 3 years from now we take a look back on today and say “hey remember when we met and did that podcast?” 

and then we've been together the whole time since, and it creates a community. And that's really where it lives for me is the relationships that get built as a result.

Kendra Corman

That's great. So, one of the things that I that I like talking about relationships, and talking about all the different podcasts that you have, and VisibilityPod. So, it sort of self-segments and self-targets different audiences.

Jennifer Palmer

Yes, and they came about you know, kind of organically. so Online For Authors when I was talking to authors. one of the biggest struggles authors have is that again. They're not clear about the conversation. They need a visibility strategy, and they did not promote it before they published the book. 

So there's another podcast called Promote Before You Publish, and that gives them, you know, the opportunity to say okay, well maybe I'm going to catch them as a writer instead of an author. And then what can we do to help other authors before they actually publish their book? 

So it really did kind of just fall in my lap, and it is like can we do this, can we play with this? Yes, no and there's some ideas that have popped up, and you know, should we do this, should we do that? and it's yeah, no there's too much going on. It's not really good fit. 

but Online For Authors and Promote Before You Publish work really well because we could talk about what did or didn't happen or what could happen. When an author, say has published a book and is going to publish another one. What would they do differently? very much like we did with them Terry as I think you're familiar with. 

but then We Are Calgary. We can feature local authors. We can feature events that their trade shows that they go to they you know the bookstores the independent bookstores that they're at there's so there's an overlap on those 2 which is you know 3 of the 5 so visibility strategy can fall into any one of the categories. 

Mine, there’s only one that doesn't fit and it's me. and as much as I fit, I don't fit. but it's Moments With Jen. There was so much on the side of everybody else and all of the business serious stuff that I created Moments With Jen. 

and there's not Much there yet, but it is an opportunity for me to be more of the person that I, and share more of the individual person versus the business hat that I wear.

Kendra Corman

And that's interesting. 

So, with all of these podcasts. I know one of the things that some people struggle with like you know pod fade, what is it happening like within sixty days or something that a lot of podcasts don't continue. Sometimes it's because people are too narrow in the topic that they choose. 

Yet yours are still fairly broad but, speak to a specific audience like you said you know Promote Before You Publish. You’re getting people as writers not necessarily authors yet, right? So, you're getting it. They're pretty narrow but yet they're fairly wide.

How do you keep content fresh? How did you determine your topics a little bit before to make sure that they were big enough? I guess for lack of a better question.

Jennifer Palmer

You know it's interesting because they came to me I didn't go looking for them. It was just given. It's like kind of dropped in. Thank you, universe. 

you know? Yeah, it really was just handed over. there was not A lot of thick thought around it. But at the same time I was clear about the conversations I wanted to be in. 

You know with Online For Authors I wanted to talk about authors I wanted to talk about online I wanted to talk about. You know what they are or aren't doing. or how you know What they needed from an online perspective. 

with Promote Before You Publish, I wanted to talk to them about building their platforms, creating an audience, creating a targeted, I call nano niche conversation. so that they were building An audience that fit what they were marketing. 

and the other We Are Calgary. Well, I live here. It's just the city so we are. I mean the community end of things you know.

there wasn't really a lot of thought around them, it is just. Get clear on the conversation. How do you want to be visible? How do you want to be seen? and so when I do this podcast I want to be featuring a Calgarian, I want to be talking about a Calgary event, I wanted to be talking about our culture our community. 

I want to be talking about, you know anything that really a city. 

and with Online For Authors, It's authors. with Promote Before You Publish, it's writers or authors that need help building platforms.

Kendra Corman

No I think that's good, I think that it's really strong. because you can have an idea and it can come to life as you go. but you have to know how you want to be seen and I think that's the key to pull out of there. 

What conversations you want to be a part of and what conversations you want to hold. There have to be enough of them. You know again to avoid Pod Fade because if you do something that's way too Narrow. You just won't have enough content.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, and that's where it too I find with the narrow aspect to say it creates opportunity right? So, when I talk about nano-niching. It's when you know the conversation you want to have and know who you want to be having it with. You go and find them, or you create them. 

So with podcasts you very much create them by selecting your guests Carefully. you know So there's that. and with the VisibilityPod managing, you know guests and hosts and that is part of it. is like no, we're not gonna just take every guest that wants to be interviewed, sorry. 

but you know there is a specific conversation here regardless of how the podcast goes or what happens in the podcast for the conversation. The title of the podcast and the guest, or the host need to be a match.

Kendra Corman

I think it's I think it's very insightful from you know, matching and strategy. because when I started you know I started with a targeted list of people that I knew I wanted to talk to that were my friends and then it's like okay. 

and then I had people that wanted to be guests and I'm like oh that's interesting and that's interesting and this is interesting. 

but it wasn't creating a cohesive message and it wasn't until I started to pick the direction that I wanted to go with it that I really started to figure out after doing it a little bit, that I really started to select what who I wanted to talk to and what I wanted to talk about. because it was a lot more beneficial for my audience to do that. 

That's the whole point.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, it's very important too, because what ends up happening is when once you form an audience as a podcast or any other platform you're marketing on, you form an audience right? and then you're putting content out there. and Then All of the sudden the content you put out is a disconnect. 

So now your audience is confused. So What happens? you lose them. You know. So it's yeah, the clarity, the visibility strategy sessions I think are really important For that. 

I think that it's really the clarity that comes out of it. The reach that you can end up having as a result of getting the clarity and staying in the vein of that. It's yeah. There's a reason I put a lot of effort into doing the coaching.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, well and I think coaching helps because a lot of times we're just too close to it to really see what we're doing or what we want to do. You know I was working with my coach and she's like okay, you just talked about that and it lit you up like you need to do more of that. 

Jennifer Palmer

On fire. Yeah, absolutely be on fire all the time as much as possible and that's so with Online for Authors, I started doing the online audits. because you know what I'm talking to an author say Okay, the point here is to Create an image that matches what you want to be seen for online. 

I said let me show you what you look like online. so I did an online audit and I take them through their online audit and I say okay. because you're on the backside of all these platforms. You don't see what I see the way I see it. 

So let's have a peek and let me show you some things that I think if you felt like spending some time and energy here could benefit you the most in tweaking. and then if you want, We can take a look at some other things. 

so that includes their social media presence, that includes what they're putting out for content. How they're putting it out and the type of content they're putting out, and where. and then it also includes you know, the Type of website. I mean one of the biggest things with authors that I'd found especially with indie authors, is that we ended up with a non-branded website. so we have your name.wordpress.com instead of YourName.com. 

so they weren't spending the money on the hosting and buying their own domain name. and believe it or not, it makes a big difference. 

and when I see that I'm going I understand. You’re pinching pennies. But if you're going to put your money somewhere, own your brand right? Build your business. 

And so that was one of the biggest things of showing people what their online presence looked like that was glaring at me. Or it's just blogspot.com like that, Not even a website. 

Yeah, so where are you? Oh, I have a Facebook page. Okay, well, there's other platforms and let me tell you why there's value in putting yourself, especially from the point of view of Being a podcast guest.

Because me as a podcast producer production manager of podcasts, I want to be on as many platforms as I possibly can be. so that when I do your interview And release it, because there's this visibility strategy attached to It. 

You are going to be on every platform we could possibly put you on so that you have more reach and visibility. and if you're not there and you don't have it, I can't tag you there can I. Right? 

So It's like okay, let's see how where can we go first that adds the most value and why.

Kendra Corman

Yeah I think you why is key question there. Why do you want to be there? because as you're talking about authors but any person any small business owner solopreneur.

There's limited a number of hours in the day right? So you can't do can't be all things to all people you have to be something to someone. and you have to know where your audience is and pick where that is.

but that doesn't mean that you can't have visibility and be visible on multiple platforms. You don't have to do them all well all the time.

Jennifer Palmer

Right.

Kendra Corman

You know, you have to pick and choose what you're doing but the visibility definitely helps.

How do you talk to your clients about that piece? because again we can't be all places all the time. How do? How do you work with them with that, and balancing All the channels with the limited time that we have in the world.

Jennifer Palmer

So part of it is not being aware of the tools that are actually available. There are lots of tools out there. and what I really want to see is I want to see an author writing, and producing, publishing More books. Now if they have more visibility, and they have more reach, that means they're selling more books. and then they can comfortably get down to writing. 

so how do we make the most Out of everything that's available to us and use the least amount of time? Well number one, if you can, hire somebody. if it's $100 a month, great. 

If not, I'm saying hire somebody but hire somebody that understands the next things I'm going to talk about. because it is so very, very important to learn how to distribute content. and for me I advise always advise video, video, video, video. 

Okay, so this is why we do recorded podcasts. This is why we put it up on YouTube, this is why we distribute content starting with YouTube. and we distributed starting actually with your interview. Okay with an interview with whomever for any podcast.

We distribute that content. We piece out that content but take the big piece and make it smaller and then push it out and repurpose, repurpose, repurpose, repurpose. because one piece of content like a 24 minute interview as a guest on a podcast can create content for a month. 

so, it doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to take a long time, but there certainly is a strategy.

Kendra Corman

And yeah I think that there's a lot of mental blocks. If I can't do it well ,or trying to do it Well, that if I can't then well then I'm just not going to do it. 

and but you're recommending multiple platforms For social media, digital marketing, things like that. Why do you feel That's so important?

Jennifer Palmer

At the very least be there. You know, even if you don't put any content out on a regular basis as a guest on a podcast which I, so for authors I recommend a podcast tour to promote the book. 

For writers I recommend a podcast toured to promote the writing this book coming out build your platforms. same thing with We Are Calgary. You start talking about the event 6 to 8 weeks before the event, if not more. 

And so, you're out there having those conversations already. You're doing these guesting tours and talking about whatever is extremely exciting and guess what everybody else is doing. They're promoting you On the platforms that they have built. 

and as a podcaster I'm everywhere I possibly can be, so I'm going to put that interview out everywhere I possibly can. and if you're not there, then you don't have the reach of the visibility. 

The benefit of the reach or the visibility that comes from that place. That's why you're not necessarily doing it. But if you're not there I can't tag you when I put the interview out, even.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, and I think being able to be tagged and get that visibility on that platform. It'll also help you identify and better understand your audience too, because if people are engaging with the post that you do Jennifer, you know there's just a lot of opportunity there.

Jennifer Palmer

So, I love that you brought this up, because it's not just the post. There's 1 place I think this is a gift that I would love to give your audience because this is so under. It's not well understood and not very well appreciated. 

YouTube. When an interview goes out on YouTube if it's your interview, go to the interview. like it, share it, comment on it. This is a big thing and yes, use hashtags in the description. These are huge things that create wonderful visibility. 

But there's the key is like engagement don't just like and share it comment. You know. Pick something out of the interview that you really enjoyed and talk about it. 

Yeah, ask questions on the comments like it just it creates engagement activity and it makes all the difference.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, it's really interesting to see you know how people can engage. And the comments make a big difference. I was just talking to some people that are in my email marketing course right now, and we're talking about their engagement on social media. 

because email and social media go together. email feeds social media, right? So, or I should say social media feeds email wrong way. But

Jennifer Palmer

Well, it does work both ways. It does work both ways, especially if you built an email list. 

Kendra Corman

It does, it does. but we were talking about it, and she's engaging on LinkedIn and commenting on other people's posts and they're engaging with her back. She's seeing a lot of growth which is fantastic.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, LinkedIn’s a really good one too.

Kendra Corman

But again, and it depends on where your audience is. but I mean YouTube, is what the second largest search engine in the world?

Jennifer Palmer

I don't know that it is anymore. Oh, I'm not sure about that actually. 

Kendra Corman

No, it's up in the top, next after Google. It’s not too far.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, yeah, I think there was in the last two or three years there's, and I can't tell you with 100% accuracy which it is.

but um, there's one that surprised me. and so, there's a twitch also you know so that's a newer one which is rising up. and we do have Some profiles there, we’re not live and present there 100% but that’s definitely coming soon. 

We talk about Imperfect Marketing, at least we're there. 

Kendra Corman

And yeah, exactly, you have to test. I mean that's part of part of how you grow and what you do. 

So I asked this question to all my guests, and usually it's the last question but I feel like with you I'm going to have more questions that that go on about it. But when you're moving on, what are some of the lessons you've learned marketing through podcasts, And using podcasting as your platform?

Jennifer Palmer

Podcasting opened the door to so many opportunities from the point of view of marketing. So originally it was just you know an avenue to take the YouTube videos and strip out the audio and put it up on a podcast. another platform to Engage an audience. 

Okay, so now Spotify through anchor. There's actually the ability to have not only audio but video podcast. so it's already I mean, you build a YouTube channel, and you build a following. so this gives you, Not only does it give you opportunity there when you get to a certain level on those platforms to monetize them. 

to look for opportunities to serve your guests, and your audience. and to attract sponsors, And do joint ventures, and build relationships. and actually do what you love and grow doing what you love and what you. like you say on fire about, you know every day. 

so, it really is. There's just so much opportunity. But you know what else there is. There's amazing Support networks for podcasting. Amazing festivals, amazing communities. 

I mean one of the biggest things I ever did and I'm so grateful that I did is that I get involved with pod match. and so now as an agency when I'm looking to have guests and hosts come together to use pod match as a matching service with the agency. 

and so we set up a proper profile. It's a lot like doing your 1 sheet as an author, or a speaker. and you create that on the community platform, and they have events on a regular basis. 

It's a matching service. like I got set up with a new author and within a day there were 30 matches. You know, there is so much opportunity. That's what I've learned with regards to marketing.

And sometimes there's too much so you really need to be careful about what made me go in.

 Yeah, so though, the biggest lesson was that there's so much opportunity you know. and the other is that I'm never going to know everything, and there are people out there that do things better than me. And I don't have to be perfect. That's a, it's a great one. It really is a fit.

Kendra Corman

Oh, and love that one. That's my favorite, because you know you don't have to be perfect. You want to move things forward and you can't move forward if you're striving for perfection right? 

Progress not perfection.

Jennifer Palmer

Yeah, well and I don't believe that as human beings we're actually on this planet to be perfect. I think it's actually the opportunity. that I mean there's more fun in the imperfection number 1. 

Because if we're all perfect. That'd be really super boring. but where's the play in perfection? Not much 

you know So we're here to play. Let's play so go out there. Do it try it have fun, be silly, be goofy. 

I mean most of Guerrilla marketing is being silly. So I mean, they've even actually incorporated our, the negativity, and the funny stuff, and the really off the wall, right into the marketing. 

So anything goes, be who you are. The audience is there and if you can't find it create it, and you know. Your life will change when you're living in the vein you're supposed to be in, you know. 

And I did another interview recently, where I mentioned that I actually grieve over you know, often The fact that so many people are so unhappy. and they go and they do things that they feel like they have to do. their have to's, not want to's.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, I You don't have to do what you think you have to do. and I do think that driving for happiness is key. I mean it's something that we should all have in our lives. I recently read the book the Gap and the Gain by Dan Sullivan and Dr Benjamin Hardy and it was really insightful. because people are measuring themselves to an ideal. We're never going to be that ideal.

Jennifer Palmer

And who created it 

Kendra Corman

We did

Jennifer Palmer

like so, but not so we grow up living in some sort of an ideal. We didn't create it. It was created before we got here and we just kind of follow along you know. And so, follow along in unhappiness are you kidding? That's not why you're here. 

It's just and I do. so I want more people to be able to be in the in the happiness vein and it would be good If they just knew the possibilities. You know there's so much possibility out there to play and enjoy and have fun. I mean seriously there's YouTube channel. Look at Mr. Beast you know he's doing things on YouTube he was offered ah over a billion dollars or something like that for his Stuff and he's turned it down. 

You know why? he's living in his vein. He's playing. He's having the time of his life. Why would you give that up? and he's young. 

You know there's you know a bunch of, overnight. overnight is another one. They've just actually started podcasting but there they go to haunted houses and whatnot. and they do these you know skits where there is showing all kinds of different adventures that they're having at this haunted house. and it's like phenomenal and they're all just having the time of their lives.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, and that's what's important.

Jennifer Palmer

Whatever it is you? Yeah, whatever it is for you. Be there, do it and share it, build the platforms have play have fun. 

You know, even if it starts out as a Hobby Ultimately at some point you continue doing it and you enjoy it enough with. You know some help with marketing Even if it's imperfect.

Kendra Corman

Yeah, marketing's definitely not perfect and then that's why there's always lessons learned. but I think it's, I think that there's just so much opportunity as you were saying not just in podcasting but building the platforms. building Communities. building connections. The more Connection Opportunities We have, the more fragmented we become. So why not work to connect with people However, you can.

Jennifer Palmer

yeah, I know it's fantastic. and speaking of connecting, it's been amazing connecting with you today.

Kendra Corman

Yes, thank you so much for your time, Jennifer. 

be sure to check the show notes at ImperfectMarketing.KendraCorman.com we'll have links to all of Jennifer's podcasts. of course VisibilityPod, which is her agency that manages podcasts And helps find guests and things like that. 

We’ll also put a link to pod match because I do think that that's a pretty cool service that will be great to share and have as a reference for anybody that is looking to match themselves as a guest or podcasters trying to find guests. all really good Resources for you to have. 

but again I think that one couple big takeaways you know make sure that you're visible, right? is something that that you were that you were sharing hence VisibilityPod it makes a ton of sense. 

You know, make sure that your online presence matches who you are. Podcasting is a great way to do that. Don't be afraid to show up on video, I think that was another message that we got there. and you know if you want to reach out to Jennifer Be sure to do that. Her contact information is in our discussion. 

Thank you guys have a great day and we'll see you next time on Imperfect Marketing.