Episode 56: Branding with Linda Kleist

Kendra Corman: 0:29

Thank you so much for tuning back into another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'm very excited to have Linda Kleist of Identity Creative here as our guest this week. Linda and I have known each other since 2015, I believe. Can you believe it's been that long? Yeah. And I, one of the things that I love about Linda is the way she thinks through brand strategy and identity. Her and her husband Bill founded an identity creative of the company that they work for back in 1993. But the way Linda's able to put things together and tell Aand story, I think is really what sets them apart from. Just graphic designers that do a logo, right? Yeah. Thanks guys. You do a lot more than that.

Linda Kleist: 1:16

Mm-hmm. Because the brand is so much more than a logo, right?

Kendra Corman: 1:20

Yeah. So let's jump in with that. Why don't you talk to me and my listeners here about branding? What is branding? To you.

Linda Kleist: 1:30

It's a, a great question. And first, thanks for having me on. It's great to connect with you and we, we've done projects together too. We brought you in to help one of our clients build out a content marketing strategy build out the personas, and that was, that was fun working together. What is branding? So let's start with what is a brand? we hear people will say, oh, we'll get some branded products. We'll put your brand on a mug or shirt. Or the, these restaurant brands are going to be doing, turning in the market, whatever. What is a brand? So there are tangible and intangible parts of every brand. The tangible things are the things we see. The logo, the building, the packaging. Yeah. Your branded products. And then there's the part that you experience. It's what's, what you feel the customer service, how people talk to you, the product you received. Did it work? That is the experience that people have. So when you would ask people do you like McDonald's? They're not thinking about the logo. They're They're thinking about their experience. What are the offerings? How I was treated before? Yeah. It's convenient for my kids. They have good coffee or no, I like the app. All of those pieces, tangible and in tangible contribute to that brand experience. So the brand is big picture. And what is branding? Now I'm going to answer your question, Fair did that, was that, was that a decent Yes. Okay.

Kendra Corman: 3:09

Yeah, no, that's, that's very good cuz I do think that there's a lot of pieces to a brand that people. don't always think about. Mm-hmm. they have a tendency to think that it's just the logo when it's a lot more than that.

Linda Kleist: 3:22

Absolutely. Right. The logo's important. I mean, how you get dressed up for the party, you know, when you walk into the room makes it first impression. And your logo is the face of your business. It's on your social media profiles is very important. So we could talk about a, a, a myriad of things related to branding. And if we wanted to talk about what, what makes a good logo where people can go wrong. So what is branding? So branding is actively, intentionally managing the brand. So you're managing the tangible and intangible pieces. So you're great at email marketing, you know that logo needs to not be stretched. It needs to be. Present. The messaging, the tone, the words you use is a consistent, cuz consistency is vital in branding. That is what's gonna build trust. And no one will give you a dollar if they don't trust you and it's subtle. So if you took, if you took say major department stores from Macy's, Nordstrom's to Walmart, and you put their flyers on the table and you covered up their. you'd be able to tell which stores, which store because of the style, all of that, every single week. It's consistent. So managing the tangible pieces is a challenge, especially for small business owners, solar entrepreneurs. They need logo files that are gonna help them place things correctly, not go a d d on their slogan and go, well, I'm kind of bored of that. We've had that for six months, or, let's change up our colors. don't get bored. Build, build brand equity. What's that? Look? But the part I think is most challenging are those intangibles,

Kendra Corman: 5:10

and I think they're the most important piece too. Mm-hmm.

Linda Kleist: 5:13

Yeah. So we we talk about the, the really, the foundational pieces of a brand are like the roots of a tree and your brand is grow. With you, your, your business is gonna change, it's gonna adapt, it's gonna have external challenges obstacles to overcome internally, and you're gonna have to navigate those things. So how do you do that and stay consistent? How do you stay aligned with your brand? What is the brand? So we had a client once call us up. We're gonna get a new website, which is what most people think. You know, I need a website and then can just get us a logo too. Yeah. The web company can build a logo, which web companies can don't mean to dis that, but it can be an afterthought. And this owner came to us and he said, they asked, the web company asked me, what is our brand? And the, well, I don't know, So we did the front and, and any good branding resource is going to do. gonna talk about, we call it a brand blueprint. It is the foundational pieces of your brand. What is your purpose? Why do you exist? That can be a challenge to nail, right? What is, why are you here? Your mission, and some people put these together, but your mission is what you're doing to fulfill that purpose. Your vision is the impact you're gonna make in the. And not just, you know, we're gonna scale and grow to, you know, 5 million in three years. Your vision is the impact. How are you gonna transform lives? And then your core values. So those, those pieces, when they're really when there's a time for discovery, they don't have to be set in stone right away, but you, you can tweak them, try'em out and tweak them. For example we. I think examples help people. I don't have it in front of me, so I'm gonna try and pull from my memory. We finished a branding recently with a company that sells aftermarket parts to transit authorities across the country. And so what is their purpose? Why are we here? We're here to keep people moving. It's clean and simple so they can walk through the shop and the person who's blasting cores in the back, in the. Back part of the workshop. They say, Hey, you're keeping people moving. You're getting that, that mom to work so she can keep food on the table. That's inspiring. So how do they do that? Their, that's their mission and then their vision to set a new standard for aftermarket parts. When you craft that, you can really, now you have the pieces that you need to. Messaging, which Kendra, you're all about, right? What's the message that we're gonna put in our email, on our website, in our sales flyers that our people, our salespeople, are gonna talk about when they're networking. So that's branding.

Kendra Corman: 8:13

One of my favorite That May, what you were talking about just made me think about, do you remember the B A S F campaign? So B A S F is business to business. They do chemicals, right? Mm-hmm. and they did a huge campaign that talked about we don't. what is it? We don't build the things you buy, we make them better or something. It was really, really neat. Because they wanted to be associated with the fact that they made things better and improved products. Mm. Because I mean, they're a chemical company. Right. But why did they exist To make products better? And you didn't buy their products, but you bought, or you know, at Target, or you know, Meyer, wherever you are, but you buy things that their products are in And it's just a really interesting different way of, of thinking about it. And I love thinking about your purpose. I'm a big fan of Simon Sinek's Golden Circle. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you Oh yeah. Share that. We'll have a link in the show notes for it if you guys haven't seen it. I talk about it a lot because I do think on people don't buy what you do. They buy why you do it. That goes for your employees too

Linda Kleist: 9:20

and Yes. And a business owner cuz Right. You've got a lot of business owners and solopreneurs in your audience and business is, it can really eat your ego raw, right? So there was a, a time. um, Years ago when I was working and I thought, am I spending my life helping someone decide what to put on a business card on the front and back? Really? This seems so empty. And when we took time to find out. Okay. And I think for people to start with what and there's, there's a gazillion ways to approach discovering your personal purpose. When you find out what. What drives you, what you're passionate about, what people will pay you to do, what you're really good at. When you can align those things and the transformation you make for others, yeah, you can put that into your business. So Bill and I were sitting one evening and we were talking about it and. we're both like, yeah, we get really energized when we can connect with people. He likes to feel like he's made like a light bulb moment a connection. Like, Hey, yeah, we, I shared, you shared. That was great. We had a good conversation. And I love it when I can help somebody feel like they saw some something, encourage them. They, I brought out something that they're really good at. And so I do that with the businesses. You think you're just. Whatever, you're just forming out chemicals or you're making parts or you're servicing. We, we work with a lot of manufacturing clients, so you are repairing servo motors, right? But when I can say, no, this is why you are special, and their light bulbs go off and so we, when we. Hashed all that out, we realized, wow, our purpose is to connect business owners with their value. Cuz you don't often see what you're good at. You don't see your own value. Help their teams see it and feel it, and then help them connect with the people they wanna do service with. So now, instead of just doing that business card, I know I'm helping. Business owners find the American dream, right? The Amer America's made of small business, right? Right. Where the engine that keeps the country going. So I'm helping fulfill that dream for someone in a great country, and that's what I'm doing in the mundane things. So I think that applies to someone flipping a burger at Chick-fil-A. Or typing out an email for an insurance company,

Kendra Corman: 11:58

Yeah. No, I mean, it all makes a difference. It makes a bigger impact than we think about those in my audience are gonna be hearing this a lot coming up, but I read the book, the Gap in the Gain by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy. Dan Sullivan's the author and founder of strategic Coach. And the really neat thing about it is that, knowing where you're going and where you came from and measuring what you've accomplished and achieved just can make you so much happier than measuring it against some random ideal, right? So I think that there's a lot to say for that, to take a look at the impact that you've made, because you definitely do, I mean, personally knowing your work and everything, you guys definitely do way more. Put stuff on business cards, and I think that that's important.

Linda Kleist: 12:45

Yeah, I think so. And more and more people are wanting to have meaning in their work. And I don't think it's the holy grail that you're eventually gonna get the job, or your business is gonna eventually down the road, be that thing that's fulfilling a purpose every. You can be fulfilling your purpose. So even I tell young people, okay, so I know this young woman, she's pushing carts. I said, you know, you're really good at this and this and this, and I could see you implement implementing that in this company that wants to do whatever. So she's like, I never thought about that. I thought it was just kind of a dumb cart pushing, you know, bringing the carts in the grocery store job. No, look at you. You are working toward a greater purpose and it's gonna get. But, so yeah, I can, I can get focused in on the purpose too, because it, it means so much. But there's so many other aspects about branding building a brand, a sustainable brand. What other things do you think your audience would be interested in? So, so

Kendra Corman: 13:50

one of the things that you brought up was you could tell some people, especially if they're starting out or looking to redo their brand or their, you know, logo because, you know, they did it themselves, you know, in Canva, didn't know who they were, what they were doing. Not that canva's bad. I love Canva. I'm a big fan of Canva. But what are some things, what are some things that they should be looking for when they're creating those physical, tangible pieces of the brand?

Linda Kleist: 14:14

There, there are, there's form over function, and I, we just tell people you want to be you want a clean, sophisticated look. Not too much detail. There are some rules that people are breaking even. Some big guys break it. One of the, the cardinal rules that gets broken is the capital offense where someone uses the capital letter and turns that into the symbol. And then writes the word next to it. Well, now that becomes a symbol and people will, we've got some examples. Actually. We've got a video on our website. I could actually link it with you. It's, it's pretty funny. Yeah, like

Kendra Corman: 14:52

give me the, gimme the link and I'll put it in the show notes for everybody

Linda Kleist: 14:54

to watch. One of'em was Truth and the T is the tree. So it looks like Ruth, you know, if they're a nonprofit and you So that's a big mistake that people can make. And when they're, when they're hiring someone to do a logo. I, I really think those pieces that we talked about, the intangibles are important to see if you can build that into the symbol, what we call a symbol story. How did we take these elements that are important to you? and build them into a distinctive, unique symbol. And it's hard to be distinctive and unique now without being busy because we can see every single logo in the world. And then you've got logo maker.com, and you could Google something and find it's, it's if, if you're a solopreneur, you're just starting up your boots strap. And you've got a limit about amount of money. It's super important to budget that so that you can stick through the thin times of your business. We think it's very important, so you can, you can update your logo later. Just keep in mind if you're, if you're purchasing. you're needing to purchase things like trade show displays graphics for a vehicle, uniforms or, or, or you're gonna be putting money in there. Then you're gonna look at having to replace all that when you, when you update your logo. The foundation is a name, a really good name. So we get naming projects, people make mistakes. What's naming. Google the name you're thinking of. If, if one or two other local businesses come up on, on the search in your industry switch, I don't care how good it is. And if you can get the.net, just don't get the.net unless you're a web company, So a good name is an essential part of building a, a strong.

Kendra Corman: 16:54

Yeah. No, and I think that, you know, again, thinking about the logo, it's expensive to redo your logo. And I don't mean the cost of having somebody come and redo a new logo. You need new business cards, new note cards. Mm-hmm. new displays. I had a nonprofit that for some reason, didn't like their logo and I strongly recommended you know that it wasn't doing any harm. Let's not redo it because we weren't rolling in money. Mm-hmm. they went ahead, they redid their logo and then I stopped working with them cuz I'm like, I don't have that kind of money to waste. But they were redoing their logo and

Linda Kleist: 17:31

they

Kendra Corman: 17:31

s it was over a year later that they came back to me and they still had. replaced the logo on their website. They hadn't replaced the logo and the colors on all of their collateral. The only thing that they did was a new logo. Hmm.

Linda Kleist: 17:45

So that, that's another important thing. If people are looking for a designer that's gonna do. A logo designed for them is to find out what the deliverables are gonna be, how I'm going. I'm going to need this. You're going to need your logo, not just in a PDF and a jpeg. You're going to need the vector art in the e p s or AI file, you're going to want one that's just positive and negative space, which is another area that people can make mistakes, is if it's, if you were to silk screen your logo on a shirt with one color. would you lose all that detail? That's back to back color, side by side. So they, they will need the, the logo files to be able to put it. yes. And then schedule a launch date. So we encourage people to, and we'll walk clients through this too, an internal launch date and then an external launch date. So internally, let your team know. Give them the talking points. Why you, why we did the rebranding. It's not just to get a new logo, we. Always tell people no one cares if you get a new logo. You get those emails right? Hey, you got a new logo and a new website. Come see like, oh. But if you say, we got a new logo and a new website, cuz we wanna show you the services that we are we offer now that apply to you or that you'll be interested in. Now I wanna check out your website so there's always a story that's relevant to our audience. Your audience, when you're doing the rebranding. Come up with one, make one, find out what matters to people and make that part of the story. So that internal launch and then the external launch where you're gonna pull the lever, you're gonna have your print stuff in the office and shirts ready for that internal launch. And then you can flip the switch on the website. Social media on a given time of date, I met a woman. This was some years ago and she handed me her business card and it was a really nice card, really professionally done, and she was a solopreneur. And I said, oh, this is beautiful. I love your local, your brand identity here is stunning. She goes, thank you. The, the designer who designed the MGM Grand did it. I forget how much she paid. I, I could guess now, but I'd probably be inaccurate. And I said, oh, why isn't it on your name tag? So she just had her just this font on her name tag, plain old, because that's your, put your logo everywhere. I don't care if you hate it, put the logo everywhere because that is the phase of your business and you want to be recognized. So she, she goes, oh, I don't even know how to get it on a name tag.

Kendra Corman: 20:29

That's not useful. But I do think, you know, one of the things that you're talking about is one, put it everywhere. So make sure that you have the files that you need to put it everywhere, but also think about where you need it. Mm-hmm. because I had somebody that was working on a logo and they're like, what do you think of this? And I was like, It's got a lot of detail. Are you gonna do any embroidery? Mm-hmm. I'm like, what does it look like? One color? Mm-hmm. What? Because it was like it wasn't gonna work in embroidery. It wasn't gonna work in one color. And most of the time nowadays because of technology, we do most things full color, but. If you have a four color logo and you wanna do, you know, as you, the example you were using screen printing. Mm-hmm. your T-shirt's gonna be four times the cost of Someone that can do it, one

Linda Kleist: 21:15

color, right? Mm-hmm. And so you really need to think about that. One of my favorite logo files. Is the, the white knockout. It's just the logo and the name. So you can have a word mark where like e, eBay, or Amazon where the name is the logo, or you can have a logo signature where you have a symbol and then a name. And I highly suggest people get a, a descriptor for small business solopreneurs so people know right away who, what you do and for who. So it's just flat white, and you can put it on every image. So we do any image that goes out on our social pages, and our email has that white knockout logo in the corner, sort of like a word mark, like a photographer would do. So if someone wants to take that image online, they're gonna have to Photoshop that out or crop it out. It's yours. And you can use that in so many places instead of having. your logo in a white box on a dark background, cuz that's the file you got in a color. It will blur. You need a white knockout so that you can put your logo on a dark background. It will look beautiful.

Kendra Corman: 22:26

Yep. No, and, and a lot of other people are gonna take your logo if you sponsor a non-profit event, things like that. A lot of times they'll put it on a dark background and then you're like, yours looks like stands out like a sore thumb because unfortunately everybody else had. You know, the reversed out. Yes. One color, whatever they needed that blended in without

Linda Kleist: 22:48

the background and stuff that, that reminds me of. I'll tell people to you if you have a long name or, or your horizontal orientation. So the symbol is on the left and then the name is to the right. That's a horizontal orientation. Ask your designer to also put the symbol on top to create a vertical so you don't have to spin your mug around to read your name. But the same when you said sponsorships. You want to be seen, you're sponsoring this event. So ask the sponsors. Here are three logo files. Please choose the one that will fit va. So you've seen those where the horizontal orientation, it's so hard to do this without visually showing you using my hands. with the horizontal orientation is squished so small. It's illegible. Mm-hmm. So you, you want, the other reason for not too much detail is because you want it to look crystal clear when it's small as. Yeah.

Kendra Corman: 23:46

No, and I think it's all, it's really important because people fall in love with a look, not necessarily, and then they're disappointed when it doesn't work in embroidery or mm-hmm. in a small setting or something like that. So I had originally done my, look, my logo was nice and long for a long, long time, and, you know, then eventually we made a square one. But you need it, you need the square version for social media. Mm-hmm. for all these different. Ex extensions that you're gonna need to use in all these different places. Mm-hmm. I think it's, it's really important to point that out. because even if you don't have it right now or have the need right now, you wanna think about all the different places it could go. Mm-hmm.

Linda Kleist: 24:26

Yes. We have a checklist. It's a free download. People, we, we brainstormed every possible place. You could put your logo, people could just come. Oh,

Kendra Corman: 24:34

that's perfect. Make sure you gimme that link so I can put that in the show notes. So be sure to check the show notes for that link too. Now let me, let me ask you about, the challenges that you face. So when you go into a lot of larger companies, a lot of the people that I work with are solo entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, small business owners, and there's one decision maker and mm-hmm. Or there might be two but not a ton. But you are going into larger organizations and dealing with some larger teams, and in some cases a lot of history. Mm-hmm. I know you did an insurance company's logo that had been around since like the sixties or seventies or something like that. what, what do you face or how do you you know, how do you work with these people that some are, you know, passionately tied to mm-hmm. the existing logo.

Linda Kleist: 25:23

Mm-hmm. that's exactly right. And that is that is an important consideration. I'm really glad you brought it up. Getting from most people, getting a new logo or rebranding is an emotional decision. I, they're used to seeing it. I mean, there are, there are times you just, everybody would look at a logo and go, oh, my word. That's horrible. But the, the owner, you know, we've had that logo for 40 years. What's wrong with it? So there's been a, a number of diff different situations. What we have found is when you work through the process of. Let's, we have a process. We say it's clarify, create, and then you're gonna connect with it. So let's clarify first those intangible pieces of the brand. And so often, most people are 90% on the page of what we need to communicate after that phase, before we even move into the logo design. Then when you move, we move into the logo. It's black and white, so you're not getting subjective color. It's in positive, negative space. So will work like we were just talking about, we don't run into those snags. And then bill will set these up in a presentation where it's tiny, it's big, it's knocked out a, a black negative space so that you can. It's kind of the test to prove whether this design could stand up. So now you've got six to eight concepts. And the team, if it's the larger team, if it's a solo printer, and usually. Solopreneurs are gonna bounce it off as somebody, so that was a mistake we'd, we'd made early on. When someone, when someone says, oh, I'm the decision maker. Nope, I'm just, it's just me. Like, no, it's not. So if it's, we want whoever you're gonna run this past, you know, your husband, your wife, your, your roommate, whatever let's bring them in on the process at some point so that they can see the thought behind it. And then, things are worked out. So we'll tell people, Hey, we have unlimited changes. You're never stuck. So if you wanna see this maybe rounded or tweaked or, or thin that part out or, or we could interchange that font so that you're loving it. But at first the designs are gonna be, okay, let me, let me try this on. Some are gonna be absolutely, no, I don't like that. Others are gonna be, well, that one's a consideration. This one's a consideration. It would be like, if. if you come back, I don't know, maybe, I don't know how many women are out there listening, but have you ever like come back from the salon and your hair is like, not the color you expected, you're like horrified, but then after two days, you're kind of used to it. I'm not talking about getting used to a horrified lo, a brand logo you're horrified with, but it takes a minute to let it sink in. It does, but with what you were talking about with a larger team. There was one where the owner, the founder, wanted one design and it was a large branding team. They brought in sales management. There were several partners, and the, the founder wanted one logo and everyone else had decided on another. But the founder is like, oh, so that's no problem. So what we'll do is we, we. a presentation that he could show to his favorite clients to other people, and he could just sit back and click, click, click, what do you think? And overwhelmingly, they chose the people he trusted, chose the ones that the rest of the group did. So there's ways to resolve that tension and get people over that emotional hump because the thing you want is to love your logo. You. everywhere,

Kendra Corman: 29:04

you're gonna see it a lot. Mm-hmm. So you better like it. Mm-hmm. at least, right? Yes. So talking about people that are on a budget cause you know, you did mention on a budget, one of the things that we talked about was not including like the tree and in truth, and so that it looks like Ruth. My question for you is, what, what cautions do you give solopreneurs and things like that, that are trying to create their own logo? Maybe themselves, because it's a tight budget.

Linda Kleist: 29:32

Which is fine as long as you're not investing a lot. And like, you need a, you're opening up a restaurant and you're gonna have a sign and menus and everything. Don't just whip it out, you know, like Ham Diner was the name we picked and there's a giant h and a giant R at the end. And so that's our logo. That would be something, Hey, make the investment. I had a Sooper once talk to me at the time I think it was 3,500. She could have gotten a nice brand identity. And she's like, oh, I couldn't afford that. Oh, I couldn't afford that. Well, her business was her lifeline. And then it was a month later she told me I bought a brand new couch for my lobby. It's beautiful. It was leather, you know, it was$4,000. But it is beautiful. And I thought, you afford what you want to afford.

Kendra Corman: 30:24

Yes, that is, that is very insightful because I don't think enough people put value on. what you bring to the table with your understanding and your eye and the different things that you guys see. For sure.

Linda Kleist: 30:42

I think it's a very subtle thing and people can look, start paying attention. So companies like Apple have raised the bar. Packaging. You know, you get that, that packaging. It's like, oh my word, this is just lovely or just from a beautiful florist. They, whatever they raised the bar and those things, that's, that goes back to that abstract. But we have shown people before and afters and What would you say about this company before? What would you say about it after? And they don't know. It's after they think maybe it's a simple a different company. Their impressions about. Is it professional? Are they expensive? And if you look homespun, people will expect home spun pricing and homes spun quality. So it is very important. So tips for solopreneurs? Yes, you can do it on a budget if you're going to go, I, I don't, I've never worked with fiber, but I've heard we've had people come to us from those kinds. So just be aware of. Find out what you're going to get, what are the deliverables? Because people will get nickel and dimed. A signed company. I talked with a manager of a sign shop and she said, we hate doing logos, but we'll do them for people for$350. If they want the files, it's another$650. That doesn't include the standards guidance. It doesn't. So you. Go to Vistaprint and make your own, but then they're gonna nickel and dime you. They are selling machine. So if you're going to hire a designer, you don't wanna tell them. If you wanna tell them what to do, that should not be very expensive. And I don't know that I'd recommend that. But if you're gonna hire a designer, ask to see the, ask them about their process. Asked to see your designs in black and white, because a lot of those online places will show you a slick thing in Boston or in neon colors. You can't make a good decision when it looks all pretty and shiny, just down and dirty. Positive, negative space, black and white. And then introduce color second. So those would be some. That I would give, I would tell, I would not tell somebody to spend most of their startup money on a logo because you need so many other things. You've got legal operations, depending on your product or services. You've got marketing. You need to be able to have something that's sustainable. And then, and there, there was, there are times too, you're not quite sure, especially if you're a. What is the unique differentiator that I bring? Sometimes you have three years in business and you're like, Hey, these clients, this is my, I'm, so, I told, I've told people, you're not really ready for a branding yet. You can make some money without an outstanding looking logo if you're, if you're good at what you do. Some experience and decide on who your target is and, and your next, but I think it's

Kendra Corman: 33:48

important that, you know, you come up with something that's clean, something that's, that is professional and that reflects you to some point. So if you're a solopreneur, you can do something in a unique font. Mm-hmm. again, make sure it's legible. That's important. That's right. I love people that love the script. Fonts that you can't read. Yes. Like you can't read that at all. Thank you

Linda Kleist: 34:08

Kendra. Like corn form over function. You want to be remembered?

Kendra Corman: 34:15

Yes. Yeah. So start, start. Basic. One thing that I actually, I feel bad, I had to tell somebody not too long ago that their logo really isn't their logo. And they're like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, they used a shape at a can. Hmm. Like for their lo well, you can't copyright that shape, but because it's not yours mm-hmm. it wasn't created for you. Hmm. And it was, you know, it was like an icon type thing out of Canva's library. Hmm. And it's not

Linda Kleist: 34:49

theirs. That's right. The word

Kendra Corman: 34:51

mark was fine, but the, the icon that they picked and fell in love with, I'm like, you're gonna have to have someone recreate that in a new way because you. You can't copyright that. Mm-hmm. and

Linda Kleist: 35:04

they had no idea. Right. And, and if it's clip art or if, especially if it's something from an image library that you could get an icon library, you could see someone else using it in their ad. So those are risks you take. I think people see. Logo design is just, oh, let's add some swishes or swirls and throw in some color, but really to do it well it's, it's clean, it's simple and distinctive, and that's a challenge to not be too much. If, if it was. If you've got something you've thrown into the name like a wordmark, and then you add a symbol now where do people look? You don't, you don't need so much. I'm telling you. It's, we have pictures. We'll snap pictures for years. We have a library like, oh my word. Look at that logo on that truck, or that on the sign of that building what people are get, are, are, are using. It's, it, it really does bruise their brand. And that is the sad part. They're putting so much into their business their life. And then they're just, you know, just are are we really going to leave, leave for a meeting without. I'm taking a shower, doing your hair. You know, for me, no makeup. Forget that. Speaking of

Kendra Corman: 36:20

no makeup, so Linda's the first person that taught me about lipstick days. Right? MAs? Mascara days. Mascara days. I'm sorry. Okay, so mascara days. So there are no mascara days. So you gotta have one day a week where you don't have to put on mascara, which is I think a lot harder nowadays with Zoom you're working from the office and you still gotta put on mascara

Linda Kleist: 36:40

Yeah, I'm waiting for them to develop a mascara filter.

Kendra Corman: 36:45

they have the lipstick filter, right? Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so I think it's, I think it's really important though, like when you're thinking about your brand and who you are, keep it simple in the beginning, you know, if you're on a budget and you don't have the money or you don't see the value quite yet, that's okay. start with the name of the. just start with it in a nice, easy font. And in a, a square layout. So it can go either way, and then you can invest and unveil it later when you, you know, have your multimillion dollar business or whatever it is that you're growing. Right. It's not permanent, you can change it. there is a process to go about with changing it, especially the more established that you are. and you really wanna think about that when you do it. And I'm bringing on someone like, like Linda and her husband, bill, I think is, and the CR team at Identity Creative, I think really does help because you guys have a process for all

Linda Kleist: 37:41

that, right? Mm-hmm. right? And I, I would encourage people if, if you haven't, and we've, we've worked with companies that have been in business for 75 years and still have not nailed their core values or if they do, they're in a drawer. I, it doesn't take any expense to write out why am I doing this? What am I doing? What's the transformation I'm making for people? And then what are the core values? And you're nothing is set in carbon stone. You can tweak those. We've added another core value over the years. try it on, use it, keep talking about it, and that really will shape the brand. Yeah, and again,

Kendra Corman: 38:29

it's not about, You know, going back to what you said in the beginning about McDonald's, when you say, do you like McDonald's? You're not thinking about the golden arches of their logo, right? Mm-hmm. you're thinking about, did you have good service the last time you were there? Was it clean or did your feet stick to the floor? Mm-hmm. just so you know, the last time I was at McDonald's, feet stuck to the floor. You know, by the pop machine, it's like, okay, someone needed to wipe that. But again, it's, it's the food, it's, it's, you know, where your fries cold, like all of that's what people remember even more than your logo. Mm-hmm. If you're gonna invest in the experience, invest in the, in the, the customer experience. I remember one of my favorite this is another thing to, to keep in mind, one of my favorite. Things that I learned when I was at Disney World and I was on like this behind the scenes tour, and they show you the backside of like where the paint stops or where the paint is the same color on the Tower of terror, because you can see it from Morocco and Epco. Hmm. So you, but they were adamant you put the money in the show. Hmm. Only the sides, the buildings that people see were. and dressed up. The backstage was plain. So when you're starting out, I think put the money in the show you know? Absolutely. Sometimes that's a logo, sometimes it's not. You know, again, it depends on what you're making. If you're having a sign and menus and things like that, that logo is the show. So make sure you're putting money in the show. Absolutely. And then, you know, not a leather couch out in your office.

Linda Kleist: 40:05

they'll, they'll remember the leather couch, but they really can't read your logo. It's, it's, it's, it's in the sand. It's a photograph where somebody wrote the name in the sand. It's a photograph. Your logo is not, not replicable. It's, it was just sad for me to see that choice made. Okay. But you were talking about the experience. Another resource for your listeners is the customer service revolution, Don de Julius. Has just so many great resources that people can glean from to make that experience, to evaluate it. And one of the things we've added to what we do with our clients, you know, the brand promise was always there. It's that unique. Differentiating thing that you do and you deliver it consistently, we can say, we delivered this. So he has the customer service action statement, and that's something that your team, your salespeople, your landscapers, whoever, this is what we do. This is our CU customer action statement. So the, there's one company, oh, and you mentioned about companies that have been around for a long time. Going back to the, is huge. Let's look at the history, because a lot of times that DNA is still still there and that that is really what makes a strong brand. So we were talking about building a customer service action statement for a company that had been around for decades. And they said, and we were looking through their iso, they had done this certification. It's like, oh, take time to do it right or better the first time. So that's pretty good. Oh yeah, we always say that around. you do Well, that's a great customer service action statement. Take time to do it right or better the first time. So that is another tool for building out what you're talking about, the Disney experience.

Kendra Corman: 42:03

Yeah. Again, putting money in the show. So again, think about if your logo and your brand, what parts of your brand, I should say, because your brand is more than just the tangible items, right? Mm-hmm. think about. what parts of your brand are the show and are the piece, the pieces that the customers are gonna see and interact with and be wowed by? Because I think that that's really important

Linda Kleist: 42:27

and it's more challenging than ever because there's not so many sides of the building that people don't see anymore. I mean, you've got glass doors, so you think you can hang up that phone and gossip about a. Well that may end up on Glassdoor, so maybe we have a core value that says we treat others or we don't gossip, or our clients are, you know, just when you say the show in, in some respects, you are always on. I heard, mm-hmm. there's a great book. Women Make the Best Salesman and I read it years ago and she saw some realtor that was in a restaurant and just being so rude to the wait. And she said, I noticed as I, as she left, she got into her car with her realtor's name on the side of the car, you knows, magnetized things. Oh my gosh. I'll never call her again. You're always on. Yeah. Really, because your brand is the experience you create for people.

Kendra Corman: 43:28

And Linda and I did a presentation, gosh, I don't even wanna remember when, cause that was a long time ago too. We, we actually talked about we talked about with interns about their brand. You know, you gotta think about your brand when you go to the grocery store and when you go out, you know? what, what is it that you're known for? How do you wanna appear to others? You never know who you're gonna run into wherever you're at. Mm-hmm. and I'm not saying you have to wear your pearls and skirt and twin sets or anything like that, ma, but, and mascara every time you go. But do you do wanna think about that, right? Mm-hmm. think about. You know, how you're appearing to others and think about your personal brand because all of this stuff that Linda talked about, you know, applies to you as a person. So even if you're an employee at another company or something like that, your personal brand reflects a lot of this. Mm-hmm. and you can control a lot of that too. The

Linda Kleist: 44:23

best part and I don't know where you are on time, but I think the best part about branding is when you are creating a brand for your business, you get to be you. So you don't have to do business with everybody. You couldn't do business with everybody. You need to get your authentic self out there. because you can live that out sustainably. Can't fake it forever. So whether you're a solopreneur, a coach or you're a small business, what is our coffee shop like? What is it here? Are we posh? Are we casual? You know, just be you because you mm-hmm. attract those people that are attracted to what you offer. authentically.

Kendra Corman: 45:08

Nope. I think that that's huge. All right, so before we go, I do ask everybody one question, all my guests. This show is called Imperfect Marketing cuz marketing is anything but perfect. What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?

Linda Kleist: 45:22

So I'm gonna take that as what has been my biggest marketing fail and lesson learned. So any fail, right? It's just an expensive course. That's all. We're gonna get on the digital paper, click, you know, bandwagon for our company, and we signed up with a digital marketing firm and we were on the low end. I don't know if it was two grand a month, 2,400 a month. Some of that was in management and some of that was in the digital ads, and we let them create the funnel, the landing page. We didn't have a follow through and we burned through so much money because we didn't build an email nurture campaign. We weren't really thinking about who we were targeting. I think this was in 20 14, 20 15. I don't know if we did it for six months. I was like, we're getting calls for, can you put my logo on my guitar pick? Is that what you do? It's like, seriously, yikes. We are wasting money, So that was our biggest marketing lesson that comes to my mind anyway. I'm sure there are others. Be smart when you're gonna invest in money. Invest money in it. There's no magic bullet. Know who you're talking to, what are the next steps they need to take in order to call you, do business with you.

Kendra Corman: 46:52

Yeah. You gotta think through all of that. You gotta think through all of that. I find that my, my campaigns that perform the worst are the ones that I don't build all the way through from start to finish and don't think about that whole, the whole funnel and the process and the follow up and the follow through and the targeting and what's motivating my target. And I think all of that stuff is, is really, really important. Even I was talking to somebody about knowing their target audience. He told me, he is like, you know what? You're right. He goes, I just had a meeting with another person and they said, stop spending money on marketing until you have a better definition of your target audience. You're throwing it away. It's integrated marketing, communications, personalized all the time to everyone, and that's what people are expecting. So that's what you have to do. Otherwise, you know, you can't be all things to all people. You have to be something to someone. And that's, that's really important to keep in mind. So thank you for sharing that. I am gonna let you go now, but I just wanna thank you guys all for tuning in and listening to Linda. She has so much experience and just so much to offer in the world of, of branding and Just brand identity overall. So be sure to check out her website and the resources that we'll link to that we were talking about earlier. We'll be sure to link to the customer service revolution information she was talking about too. And of course, The book that I think we all gonna need to read now, what women make the best salesman. So again, all different things for us to take a look at and, and to keep learning, and keep building our brand. So as, as we're heading into 2023, I want you to think about your brand, who you are, what's your purpose, what's your mission, and does your, do the tangible and intangibles of your brand fit? So thank you again, and tune in next week for another episode of Imperfect Marketing.