Imperfect Marketing

Episode 62: Where Marketing is Headed in 2023 and Beyond

January 12, 2023 Kendra Corman Episode 62
Imperfect Marketing
Episode 62: Where Marketing is Headed in 2023 and Beyond
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode of Imperfect Marketing, I get to speak with Ben Lund of Rise Marketing Group. We have an amazing conversation and explore several 2023 marketing trends he sees developing.

Here's a quick little cheat sheet of topics:

  • AI
  • Machine Learning
  • Automation
  • User First Relationships
  • Strong Creative

These are great things to consider as we move forward in our marketing planning for this year.

We discussed how Google, Facebook, and other media sites are becoming more innovative and can help us drive more conversions. But don't get too excited—this isn't an excuse to skip defining your target audience! Understanding your target audience and building a relationship with them is still extremely important.

Click here to access the transcript and follow along!

Looking to connect with Ben?

Resources discussed or related to this episode:



Transform Your Communication Strategy with AI

Get my free eBook "Mastering AI in Communications" and learn how to leverage AI to enhance your business communication.

Whether you're looking to boost your content creation, grow your audience, or refine your brand's voice - this book covers practical strategies to integrate AI effectively.

Get Your Copy Here

Discover how the CREATE framework allows you to shape AI tools into allies that save time while amplifying your unique perspective.



Kendra Corman:

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing! I'm your host, Kendra.

And today we're going to be talking about where marketing is headed in 2023 and beyond, with my guest today, Ben Lund. He's the founder of Rise Marketing Group. He's been active in marketing since 2005, working at companies such as Monster, Yahoo, Rimm Kaufman Group, Google.

And now he has his marketing firm, Rise Marketing Group, which is a performance marketing agency focused on advertising, SEO, email marketing, and social media, which sounds fantastic.

So welcome and thanks so much for joining me today!

Ben Lund:

Thanks so much, Kendra. Happy to be here.

Kendra Corman:

So let's talk about where marketing is headed in 2023 and beyond?

Ben Lund: 

Yeah, marketing where I believe marketing is headed. It's all following the trend of machine learning, automation, and AI. And I'll give you some very good examples of this.

So even when I was at Google, I was at Google from, when was it, it was 2014 to 2018 up here in Cambridge Massachusetts. I was an account lead and I was also the automation specialist for our vertical.

So even at the time, Google is trying to figure out like, oh, we don't do CPC bids as much anymore.

Let's just say Google, you know, I'm looking for business outcomes. This is my conversion event. I don't care about clicks, I care about conversions.

I want you to optimize towards this. Not only do I want you to optimize, try to hit within the CPA or cost per acquisition target.

So even then, Google and other platforms are like, well, we know end advertisers. They don't really care about the clicks, they just care about the end results. And that was starting to happen in the teens of 2000. And that just continues on to this day.

And where marketing's going, I believe it's, there's always gonna have a need for marketers. I'm not advocating this so I don't have a job. There's always gonna have a need for a marketer, but the marketer role is shifting of less of manual actions that you're doing day in, day out of like, oh, it's, it's five o'clock I have to increase my bids cuz conversions rates are a little bit higher.

Or let's go after this keyword then, or this. It's giving the platforms, I mentioned Google, but that's not just Google. It's meta, Facebook, Instagram, all the tools and information. And then as a marketer, you're guiding and training the algorithms to really pick up and drive some awesome results.

I'm gonna give one more example.

So early in 2022. Google released a new campaign type called Performance Max. And Performance Max, unlike traditional campaigns, ads can serve across all their properties, so it's search, YouTube, Gmail, discover, and standard display ads on their network.

And you just say, Google, here are signals of my audience.

Google's not gonna explicitly go after it, but like, Hey, keep notice of these audience. This is my conversion goal. This is my budget. Go crazy!

And Google will then go crazy in trying to find your audience and it actually works really well. So as marketers we're shifting and training these algorithms and I don't think that's gonna stop.

I think that this whole theme of AI and machine learning is just gonna continue to accelerate in our job at, of marketers is less of the day-to-day tweaks and more of like, training these algorithms to do some really awesome stuff.

Kendra Corman:

I really like how they're doing it. I do a lot more Facebook ads than Google ads, and I love how they're doing it because I can give them a wide audience, but they can find out who's converting and they know that that's what I'm going for.

And it gives them the signals, and then they adjust because I know that this is shocking, but they want me to be successful because then they get more money.

Ben Lund:

We have a large client I won't say names just cuz I don't have their approval of sharing this information, but we've done similar tests with social ads, Facebook ads.

Like, okay, highly curated audience. This is gonna be the perfect, best audience ever. Let's just target anyone in the US you know, my conversion, have at it.

And it's like a fun bake off. And when you just give Facebook free reign. In this case, I'm not saying for every client, it did better. Which is pretty cool. It was very cool.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, Facebook seems to do better with a larger range.

Ben Lund: 

Yes.

Kendra Corman: 

From what I've seen, the larger, the less requirements you give Facebook, the better it does because I think with, partially with some of the privacy. And I don't know what you think about that.

Ben Lund:

Mm-hmm.

Kendra Corman:

Part of the privacy things that you can't target certain areas. Facebook still knows that information, so even though I can't pick to target it,

Ben Lund:

That's true

Kendra Corman:

They can.

Ben Lund:

They can.

Yes. That's very, that's very true. Big Brother just always watching us. It's very true. Yeah, it's super interesting and it just, it works.

But what I was gonna say is, what's so incredibly important, is you need ironclad measurement. So if there's, anyone's like, "oh, I wanna do Facebook ads, I wanna do Google ads, and it's so exciting!"

And you don't have the best measurement set up, or you don't have, you don't, you're not measuring actual revenue in or anything like that. You're just asking for trouble. Like I know it's exciting.

You're like, "oh, I built out this account. Yeah, I don't have measurement. I have the pixels. It's tracking page views. Let's just go towards that!"

Don't sell yourself short, take, finish it off and then get solid measurement. Cuz if you do, it's gonna work.

If you don't have great measurement or if you have let's say, three conversion events on your site lead form, transaction ,newsletter, for example. Track everything, you gotta track everything and it's going to, that's the biggest fall I see that people take is when we take over ad accounts from.

Measurements, like half baked, and we actually have a specialist on our team that 80% of their job is just measurement, measurement, measurement, measurement, everything set up soup to nuts.

Kendra Corman:

That's great because it is so key because again, with the way tracking has gone and everything, you don't want page views.

You want conversions.

Ben Lund:

Mm-hmm.

Kendra Corman:

And to boost a post or something along those lines, you're sort of phoning it in.

I mean, yes, awareness campaigns are great,

Ben Lund:

You are phoning it in.

Kendra Corman:

That's all it is.

Ben Lund:

Yeah. I've been telling folks years ago, they're like, "oh yeah, I do a boosted post."

I'm like, what's the point? Like, no, don't even do that because you don't even know who you're, who it's reaching.

You probably don't have the pixels set up. It's like it feels gratifying. Like, "Ooh, I boost it. So exciting. I hit a thousand people!"

But then they're always like, "yeah, nothing happened."

I'm like, "well, yeah, duh." Like .

Kendra Corman:

Well, you didn't have them going anywhere that had a conversion. You weren't tracking it.

Ben Lund:

Yeah, it's not learning and all that good stuff.

Kendra Corman:

I believe in spending money on things that make money. I'm not a big fan of just spending money to just boost views.

Ben Lund:

That is, it's almost like if you're shopping in a grocery store, if you're not doing Instacart, it's like the junk food is right there. It's like this immediate gratification like, Ooh, I'm gonna buy this candy bar.

You're not getting anything out of it. You're just getting like a little sugar high. And that's about it. And that's, that's akin too, my opinion, a boosted post like, "Ooh, it feels kind of cool. Ooh, reached a thousand people."

Yeah. Nothing really happened. Cool.

Kendra Corman:

Now I'm tired cuz my sugar high ran off. Yes.

Ben Lund:

Yeah, exactly.

Now I'm tired and I'm 10 bucks short or a hundred bucks Short.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. With inflation.

So, okay. So I think that's great. I think the ai, the machine learning, the technology that the media platforms are putting into place, I think is fantastic. But let's talk a little bit more about automation.

So you're talking about automation outside of actual advertising. What are you seeing there?

Ben Lund:

It's everywhere. Um, it's everywhere. I mean, even site automations with like chat bots. I mean, they're so, so good.

I mean, even on our site, we're using a company. Right now we're testing jury out tbd. So this isn't a full endorsement, but like Mobile Monkey and they have like some really great chat bots and you do all these.

Hey, chat bot, are you interested in advertising? Great.

And then it goes down a little path, oh, are you interested in social ads, Google Ads, whatever. Okay, cool.

What's your budget? Ba ba ba ba ba. Okay, here's a link. And then same thing for SEO and email marketing.

All that happens when you're sleeping, you're not even doing anything, and you've engaged with a customer, and the customer knows it's a bot.

But as long as it's a thought out bot that actually adds value and can progress a conversation or answer questions. That's gonna continue.

And then email marketing, you know, just as well as anyone. All the email marketing flows, the automations, you get the lead and "hey, thanks for signing up up!"

About day two.

Oh, by the way, have you realized this? Da da.

But all the content needs to be very much value driven. It can't just be like, things are setting up. Give me this, gimme this give. It's like, no, no, no, no. You're building a relationship, and treat it as a nice relationship, and they may not transact with you in the next three months or a year.

But value focused automated content, and eventually it will turn around. They're like, "okay, yeah, yeah. Ben and the folks at Rise, they seem really cool and they know what they're doing. Yeah. I think I have a need for SEO. I'm gonna reach out to them."

Kendra Corman:

I love what you're talking about there. Value and relationships. And I think, you know, even when you were talking about the bot, the chat bot on your website, that still has to add value, right?

Ben Lund:

Mm-hmm.

Kendra Corman:

And help feel, feel and fuel the relationship because if it doesn't, and again, they can know it's a bot, that's not a problem. I don't think people have issues with bots, as long as they're not too difficult to deal with. Again, it has to be well thought out, so that value

Ben Lund:

If you're stranded in an airport and deal with a bot, that's a different story.

You don't wanna deal with that one!

Kendra Corman:

Right?

But if you're asking questions about SEO and email marketing or investigating options for an agency, that's a different situation. I agree.

But I think that that value, that thought out process, that creating the relationship is really core for where marketing is headed within automation.

And I think that that's important and I love that you stress that because without that, automation's worthless.

Ben Lund:

Yeah. And without it, you're just spamming people.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. Nobody wants to spam people.

Ben Lund:

No one wants to spam people. That's just like email marketing circa 10, 20 years ago, buy an email list and just be like, buy this widget, 50% off. Your conversion rate's gonna be like 0.25, maybe.

But yeah, value driven. Think always of user first, the customer, and treat it as a relationship because that is what you want.

Kendra Corman:

And I think you hit on another trend for 2023. User first.

We keep saying it, but I don't think we've lived it enough as, not necessarily just as marketers, but as companies that are trying to market.

Ben Lund:

Yeah.

Kendra Corman:

They're like, well, I wanna say this. And I'm like, but do they care?

Ben Lund:

Yeah. Yes, yes. Always.

And it's hard to do, even as myself as a marketer. It's hard to do. Because you can be in the lens of like, "oh, we're the best company in the world. Here's all the cool stuff that we do!"

It's like, well, they don't really care. Like how can you solve their problem in this specific moment? That's what they care about.

And it's very hard because then you can still think of like, "but we're so cool and I wanna say all these cool things!"

It's hard, it's, but yeah, user first, because that's just how you engage with people in their real life.

You ask questions, how are they doing? What's going on?

You don't be like, "hi, my name's Ben Lund. I'm a marketer. How are you?"

it's like, what?

Sorry.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah.

Ben Lund:

I digress.

Kendra Corman:

No, it's good because it's about those conversations. I think that goes again, back to that relationship user first. That's so important!

And then one thing that I do wanna go back to that you were talking about with like the Facebook targeting. Yes, you gave them a wide range, but you still understood who your target was. Those ads that you're creating are speaking to a certain person, which is driving the conversion.

So yes, Facebook is narrowing it in, however, that doesn't take away, I wanna stress this because I feel like people are gonna look at it as an excuse to not target their audience or not define their target audience to the level that they need to.

I think that a lot of people don't do that well enough. This is not an excuse for that. Your ad still have to resonate with your audience and answer questions or pose questions that they're asking, right?

Ben Lund:

Mm-hmm, and that is another, 2023 and beyond Trend is the value of really good creative. And copy.

I feel more so than ever because whatever you're selling, it's way, the Internet's way more competitive. There's amazing sites out there. There's amazing brands. It's so many great direct to consumer.

You need to stand out and, you know, advertising, marketing, 10 years ago, you didn't really need to. You could just have, throw up an image, throw up some copy, free shipping, cool, you're good, you're gonna get some sales.

That's not the case anymore. You need a great creative and, and frankly, even as a brand, you need to stand for something. Which I think all this is good, like great things, but you just have to do because it's only getting more competitive.

Kendra Corman:

So, tell me more about what you mean by you have to stand for something as a brand?

Ben Lund:

Yeah. If consumers have options, now more than ever, they're not, if they're going to buy a microphone, more likely than not, they're not just gonna go to Best Buy and there's two options there, and they're just gonna pick one. And that's, that's it. And then that's usually, I mean, that's how it worked for a very long.

Now they will go on Amazon, they'll do their Google searches, and they'll go on CNN and a wire cutter and all these crazy things.

So there's many options and everyone's selling similar things, or sometimes the same things are just like a reseller. So then you need to stand out of, well, why should you buy for us for a big, big box retailer?

Like, tell me a little bit about yourself. What do you stand for? And for example, even with our company, for some gifting that we did for our employees.

We, I was like thinking of like, oh, what wish should I get our employees? That worked so hard this year. And then my, actually my wife introduced me to them Parker Clay. Awesome leather good company, stands for something that is close to about sustainability, employing women in Ethiopia, it just like stands for something.

It's not just buying, you know, going to Macy's and buying a leather messenger bag, it carries so much more weight. And for me, that was important. That's kind of, and I, it just resonated with me.

I'm like, no, I'm gonna spend an extra 50 bucks per item, or whatever it is. I don't really care about price. That throws the price sensitivity out because they stand for something that I personally believe in.

That's just me. But other people could have different things that they believe in and they're willing to spend more to support a brand that follows their same core fabric.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, I definitely think that corporate social responsibility, no matter your size, is extremely important. Giving back, representing the things, standing for things, that's, that's important. And especially if it resonates with your audience, it's gonna make a difference.

And I think you hit the nail on the head with it starts to remove some of the price sensitivity. Not all of it, but some of it.

Ben Lund: 

Right? Yeah, it, yeah, absolutely it does. And then because without that, what do you have to stand on?

Quality? Everyone says they're great quality, genuine leather, whatever.

It's, it's gonna come down to price. So you need something to set you up and be like, yeah, no, I am more expensive, but you know, it's worth it. This is our brand. And it just removes that that friction. .

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. Like, there's a nonprofit that I work with that has a store, local storefront locally.

They work with people with disabilities and their costs are higher because they're training these people on how to work in a store.

So what they, what did they say to me? They said, well, mistakes are costly, and they add up. We go through two to three times the number of price tags that any other business would go through, because they get put on incorrectly the first couple times.

Ben Lund:

That's funny.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. But it's just little things like that, right? That, yeah, that take up the cost. But you feel good shopping there.

Ben Lund: 

Well, good. It's not

Kendra Corman:

Cause you're making a difference.

Ben Lund:

an Amazon thing that you get in the mail and satisfied for a second, that's about it.

It's like, oh no. Like give back and give back to the community, especially for folks in need. And you're fine paying a 10, 20% upcharge. And it's not all just like they're taking all this profit, it's to support the cause that you believe in.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. No, I think that that's great.

So, all right, so AI, machine learning, automation, user first relationships, I think all of those are really great trends as we move forward into to 2023.

Ben Lund:

Yeah.

Kendra Corman:

Anything else? Oh, and strong creative.

Ben Lund:

Strong creative. I know. I feel like that's a lot. But it's all, it's all very true. And they're all weighted equally in my opinion. There's not one like over the other.

No, I think that's, that pretty much caps up, at least my perspective on marketing in 2023 and beyond, as it stands, right now..

Kendra Corman:

No, I think that that's really interesting.

What do you think about video? Everybody's talking about how video is gaining in popularity. I feel like we've been saying that for like 15 years now.

Ben Lund:

And it's finally happening. It's finally happening. It's akin to when I worked at Yahoo in the mid 2000s, they're always like, "oh, it's gonna be, everything's mobile, mobile, mobile."

And it didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. Until it happened. And now everything's mobile.

And that's the same thing I believe, with video. And we're all in on video. We're you know, sometimes we don't create video. But we, in our network, we work with some video production companies and I'm like, you guys are in a really good spot. Like, video is not slowing down. I think you guys are gonna be good for the next long time.

But we use video. We encourage video for our clients for a couple reasons. One, it's a great way of telling their brand story with sight, sound, and motion. Also, since we do some SEO for our clients, we've been finding that video is very helpful for search engine optimization.

And I actually just recorded a video on this earlier that's gonna be posted on our YouTube channel in just another day or two. There's a couple reasons.

One, you're posted on YouTube, which is the second largest search engine, so there's a whole separate audience over there that you can have access to.

Two, get the video on your site can help out with conversion rates. Also engagement. More people engage with your site, Google likes for rankings, and then two, get that transcript, put that on your site in a way that's UX friendly and everything.

That's a lot more content that you can rank for. So we are very bullish on video, even though we're not a video production company, but we advocate that folks use video to help out general marketing, definitely for SEO, but then it can also help with just conversion rate and user experience.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. And again, going back to that, the user experience is what's key.

So you really wanna think about that, cuz that's that value and that relationship and the user first that we're talking about. And I think, you know, again, as, as the machine learning moves forward, they're looking for that.

Ben Lund:

Yep.

Kendra Corman:

Right? So they're looking for that, that you put the user first because they're putting the user first.

I recently had a guest on the podcast who or who specializes in Google and things like, and he said, "one thing you gotta remember is that these are Google's customers first."

And that really resonated with me. So again, going back to that user experience and user first, because again, it's not your customer , it's Google's. They're just sending them to you, right?

And they want them to have a really good experience. So I think that that's really interesting.

Ben Lund:

Yeah. And google will know if they are sending their customers, their users to your site, and they're just bouncing left and right, Google will know pretty fast and be like, "okay, sorry guys. We're suppressing your results because it's not good value."

It's not good value, and Google will find out.

Kendra Corman:

Yep. Exactly. Cuz they know everything. I feel like they know everything.

So we've been talking about your experience with Google and Yahoo and monster, some pretty big companies, and some pretty, and a pretty impressive background.

What made you take the leap from going from Google to start your own company?

Ben Lund:

Some, I don't know. I can't pinpoint it. Something inside of me always wanted to build and create my own thing and run my own shop. And I never knew what it was.

I always figured like, oh, I have to sell something. I have to open up a brick and mortar shop or sell coffee, or whatever it is. And then as I continue on marketing, which I love doing to this day, all of a sudden it dawned on me, I'm like, well, I could just sell our expertise and do really cool marketing for our clients.

So it, it was just building and then, Yeah, one day I was just like, if I don't do this now, I'm never gonna do this. At least that's what I felt.

And I was late thirties and I just didn't wanna have regret of being 70 and be like, I wish I really tried building something because, and in my perspective I was like, well, let's say I try it and it doesn't work.

So what I scratched this. You could always go back. Yeah, I had great experience at different companies and always left on good terms. You can always find a job, you can always go back.

But yeah, so it was just something deep inside of me I wanted to do. A little scary for sure. But I love it. And I imagined similar to you as well.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. Actually it's funny cause that's, you're the first person that I've heard other than myself say, I always thought when I opened up my own business, I would have to have brick and mortar and sell things.

Ben Lund:

Yeah.

Kendra Corman:

Cause I think that's a little bit with how, you know we were raised in that mentality of a company, you're selling something.

And I still remember sitting down with this one gentleman and I was like, "all right, I'm ready for something new."

And he's like, "well, why don't you try something on your own?"

And I'm like, "I don't have enough money for a subway franchise.

Ben Lund:

Yeah.

Kendra Corman:

And he said, "no, you could do marketing."

And I'm like, "who would pay me for that?"

And he goes, he goes, "you are paid for that right now."

And I was like, "oh."

Like, it just didn't even click for me that people, that other people needed those services. And it was just, I don't know, it was really eye-opening and it was like, sometimes you just need somebody to shine the light on that.

But I had the exact same, the exact same feeling of, you know, okay, what am I gonna sell? And it's like, no, I have a ton of expertise.

Ben Lund:

Yeah, I remember looking at like all those like franchise advertisements at the back of like whatever business magazine like, "this is interesting."

And yeah, they're all like 50 grand, a hundred grand, whatever.

It's like, no, you don't. You don't need that. You have expertise.

And I'm sure most folks listening to this podcast, they're ever interested in jumping entrepreneurship. They do have some level of expertise, and then they can further progress through learning as well.

Kendra Corman:

Yeah. And then you just need to do what you say, you know, you're gonna do and deliver, and you're good. Cause not enough people do that part too.

Ben Lund:

Yes. No, that's true. You gotta, you have to have accountability because otherwise, what are you doing then?

Kendra Corman:

Yeah, I agree.

Well, thank you so much for this conversation. Before I let you go, I ask every guest one simple question, and because this show is called Imperfect Marketing, as we well know, marketing is anything but perfect as we're talking about the changing trends.

So we do have job security, you and I. What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?

Ben Lund:

Biggest marketing lesson learned, I believe, is there are no failed marketing campaigns as long as you learned something from it. So this gets back into like, we are firm believers of solid measurement, Google analytics, conversion events, everything.

And let's say you launched two campaigns. One campaign, you get customers and everything's great, and the other one just totally fell flat. That doesn't mean it's a failure. It's only a failure if you didn't learn anything from it. So what you could take through looking at the analytics, you'd be like, oh, you know, actually the offer was a different offer.

That's not right. I can learn from that. And like we tweak, or it's a different audience or whatever. But, yeah, I believe that. And what I've learned is that there are no such thing as failed marketing campaigns as long as you're learning something.

But if you don't have the proper measurement, and you're just reckless with your budgets without really understanding what's happening, then that would be failed.

But as long as you're learning and always stepping more towards the finish line of understanding who your customer is and what's getting them to buy, then that's not a failure, even if that campaign didn't produce any meaningful results.

Kendra Corman:

No, I think that that's a great addition because we can always learn. Marketing has such a large percentage that is experimentation and testing, which I think is really important to remember.

Just because something isn't as successful as you intended, sometimes, you know, it still has results. Just not as many as you'd like. But then in the end, if you learn stuff even that, that's not the right thing to do anymore, that's still good too.

Ben Lund:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Kendra Corman:

So that's awesome. Thank you so much, Ben, for all of your time today. I do appreciate it. I loved talking about where marketing is headed in 2023. I do think technology plays a big role when it comes to building relationships, the user experience, all of that is what we need to be focusing on as marketers, and then let the machines do some of that data entry stuff we used to do, right?

Ben Lund:

Yeah, that's right.

Kendra Corman:

If you want to connect with Banner Rise Marketing Group, we'll have links for you in the show notes, so be sure to check that out if you wanna connect with him.

Thank you guys so much. If you got something out of this podcast, you could do me a favor and you can like and subscribe wherever you're listening to this episode.

I would appreciate it. It would help me out a bunch, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.