Imperfect Marketing

Episode 76: Are you telling your prospects what to do? They might not do it just to be contrary.

March 02, 2023 Kendra Corman Episode 76
Imperfect Marketing
Episode 76: Are you telling your prospects what to do? They might not do it just to be contrary.
Show Notes Transcript

Today's Imperfect Marketing conversation is with Scott Murray and we had a great conversation about building relationships—not just marketing or promoting. People enjoy connection and relationships,  so ask yourself this: are you telling your prospects what to do?

Scott does a lot of reading and brought quite a few resources to the discussion, so there are links below to several books that he mentioned. A lot of this research has revealed—and I think we can all agree—that none of us like to be told what to do.

That is what marketing has been all about in the past. Buy now! You NEED this! But as we move forward, it's time to focus on building connections.

Click here to access the transcript to follow along!

Here are a few of my takeaways from the conversation:

  • If you are telling people what to do, they may not do it out of spite.
  • Consumers are in control.
  • What's important in marketing? Relationships and making sure you are adding value.
  • LISTEN!

Want to connect with Scott? Check out his website here. 

Links to Books and Resources Mentioned in this Episode:

Related Resources:



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Kendra Corman: 

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I'm excited! 

Today I have Scott Murray. He is the Communication Craftsman. He spent over 20 years writing and producing content for a variety of industries, and worked to help companies evolve their marketing strategies to meet the needs of the modern consumer.

Very interesting stuff. Welcome!

Scott Murray: 

Hi, Kendra. Thank you so much for having me here. It's a pleasure to be with you and your audience. 

Kendra Corman: 

Thank you. So one of the things that I hear you saying is that marketers have to stop thinking like marketers. 

Why do you say that? 

Scott Murray: 

Well because it traps them into something that is really counterproductive today in what the consumers want.

And a lot of that has to do with just how things have changed. And a lot of things have changed because marketing's become a lot less A to B and linear. And really right now, since they're seeing us, consumers are seeing marketers on places like social media and online. 

They're bombarded with ads, they're bombarded with people trying to get them to click on things, bombarded with all kinds of things that build up a lot of negativity towards us.

And a lot of that has to do with, because the fact that it used to work that way. And so I think there's still an element of marketing and, you know, the fundamental definition of marketing involves the words like promotion. 

And really we gotta start getting away from trying to promote, and I actually say that people need to become sparketers, which is to spark response, emotion, and interest in what we're doing. By first and foremost communicating more effectively and showing some humanity. 

And showing that we really are in it to help them. And we're not just doing this to make it look like we're trying to help them, and in actuality we're trying to help us and the business first. Cuz that's where the marketing mindset, I think gets can get businesses in trouble.

Kendra Corman: 

Okay. That's interesting. I like that cuz I do think you can't fake humanity. People can see through it, right? 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Kendra Corman: 

You have to be authentic. 

Scott Murray: 

Definitely. I mean, and because you know what we were just talking about. I mean the nice thing about it is marketers are also consumers. And what's funny sometimes is as when we're in that marketing mindset, we'll end up creating content that we would never look at as a consumer, you know. 

And you can't fake it because like you say, we've seen it. We've seen it all. And if anything, our defenses are up cuz we're always wondering if, you know somebody really has our best interest in mind or whether it's clickbait or something.

So we really have to see a more genuine approach to communicating with us as consumers. I mean, it's even true in storytelling and film. I took Robert McKee's story seminar like 20 years ago, and one of the things Robert talked about is don't try to fool your audience. Don't try think you can hide something or reorganize something or fake something, cuz they will see right through it.

And I think the same is true in marketing, like you say. 

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah, I think we're experienced as consumers and we do look for, you know, if you're trying to fool us, right? 

Well, that's too good to be true. And what's in it for me type thing. Or what's in it for you? What are you doing? 

Scott Murray: 

Well, and I think we do things too, to almost make ourselves feel better that they can't get us.

You know, one of my most successful, you know, long-term jobs was helping boost fundraising efforts at the NPR affiliate in Dallas. And one of the things I had to overcome was that they could hear a good message about, you know, serving the community. You know, community funded radio and all this stuff, but they may not give during the fundraising drive right at that moment.

If for they, they're going to, but they're just not gonna do it at that moment cuz they wanna prove that as good as that message was, you can't get me to do it. You're not gonna win that battle. 

And I know that I can be that way to the extreme as a consumer, like I'm the kind of person that when I wanna watch a video on YouTube and they're gonna force that five to 30 second ad in my face first. To prove that that's not gonna work, I will minimize the screen. 

Just so I'm making the point. Yeah, you think you're gonna make me watch this before I really want to get to what I want? But I'm gonna prove to you that you can't do it. 

And I think consumers have that mindset. As well when they see things that might be simply, in their mind, a company trying to get them to look at an ad or a promotion or again, something that's going to help the brand first.

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. Well, speaking about getting engagement and reactions from people that we want, not necessarily the fact that they're gonna potentially dig in their heels, right? 

Why do you view so many companies struggling to generate responses on social media? 

Scott Murray: 

I think a lot of that has to do with, you probably have a lot of companies first, that were doing marketing before things radically changed and they look at social media like they did television or radio.

They go, "okay, this is a channel that we can broadcast our commercial and our promotions, and we just gotta figure out how it works and we'll just go out there and do it."

The problem is, it is called social media for a reason, and that's what people want. And it just, it's just not working that well. In fact, it goes even deeper than that. 

When I was getting my master's, I did some research on this study called cutting through the Content Clutter, and they looked at these Facebook and Twitter accounts from major brands. Thousands of tweets, thousands of Facebook posts. And some of these even came from like Nike and Amazon.

And they were trying to see a number of things as to what would generate a share or engagement. And one of the things they first found out was, the one thing that will get people to completely ignore you is when you're telling them what to do. So, buy this, come to our sale, click on this. You know, we're telling people what to do.

Whereas if you are having a conversation, generating some interest by asking a question or things like that. People are much more interested. 

And the point in from one of the authors was just that, is that the consumer is used to being told what to do through ads. And that's not gonna work on social media.

And it's very common for brands to say, okay, well let's just, let's automate all these promotions. And it all it really becomes is a rotating billboard. And people just don't respond to that. And sometimes people think it's a victory because six people liked it. And of course four of those people work for the company

But, you know, and that means social media is working and not realizing just how much they can get out of it because there hasn't been enough time spent on really what's going to engage the consumer properly and in an effective way through a brand new media. 

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. Social media needs to remain social.

It should be social; it should be engaging. You need to think about what you're posting on there. I mean, yes, you can post "salesy type" things every once in a while, but most of what you need to be doing needs to be adding value. And I think people overlook that. 

One of my previous guests said which I liked, is All of your customers are listening to the same radio station called, what's in it for me? 

And I liked how he talked about it that way. I always ask my client, okay, so what's in it for me? If I'm reading this, what's in it for me? You know, as your customer, or client, or prospective customer? 

And because I think so many people are, this is what I need to talk about. It's like, that's not what I wanna hear cuz there's no value for me as the reader. 

So, let's go ahead and talk about that cuz you said that companies are really putting out a lot of content that puts their needs first. So what kind of content or communications are you seeing, or should people try and be aware of so that they don't look selfish and like they're putting that forward first?

Scott Murray: 

Well, sometimes it can be little things. You know, we talked a moment ago about, you know, not being able to fool the consumer or the audience. It could be something as simple as, I'm gonna go ahead. I don't know if I should because maybe this is clickbait, but maybe this headline that this company just shared, maybe it might be of something of value.

So I click on it and I see in the first paragraph that the company's already linked to themselves in the first paragraph. Immediately, I'm already thinking, okay, I know why this was written. This is not for me. This is for them. They're already trying to get me to click on other things that benefit them.

They couldn't even get to the first paragraph yet, you know? And they're already doing this. 

I'm also seeing a good debate out there about gated content. Because again we have to start thinking about experience and interpretation and that's why communication is such a relevant part of the equation. 

Because, you know, even if we're having a conversation, you know, something I may say to you today might trigger response internally based on things you've heard other people say or other experiences you've had.

It's the same thing with content in the consumer. So there's a lot of consumers out there that had to grit their teeth when they were filling out that long form so they could get this PDF. Or this, you know, piece of content. And if it, and a lot of times they probably feel like they didn't get really the value that was worth sending, putting all that information in.

Or what ended up happening is they got looped into an email list that gets spammed with multiple times. So there's already reason not to fill it out. I mean, they have to stop and think, how badly do I really want this and am I willing to roll the dice? 

Now I did see someone on LinkedIn one time give a really good way to maybe find a happy medium. I mean, I think there is definitely value in thinking twice before doing gated content. Cause you're essentially saying, do something for me before I give you what you want. That's how that's interpreted. 

Now, if you write a blog where you spend, let's just say a good chunk of it, and you provide some really good, insightful and helpful information. And you've already demonstrated that you Can provide really valuable insight or something helpful. 

Then perhaps you can say, Hey, guess what? We can go even deeper with this other piece of research and content we have. If you'll put in, you know, just your name in an email or whatever, you know, keep it simple. You might at least be able to provide value upfront before asking something from them. 

So I mean, that's one of the ways you can really at least get around it because there's just so much today from clickbait. Clickbait looks selfish, linking to yourself too often, and keyword stuffing looks selfish. And even gated content can, if it's just simply, you know here's this insight that we have, and you click on the link and then it says, yeah, remember when we told you we had this insight?

We do, but we want you to do this before we give it to you. 

And I think that's where things can get tricky because, you know, it looks selfish and there's probably been some bad experience out there that makes people just go, ah, it's not that important to me. 

And you've missed an opportunity. And the only reason why you missed that opportunity is because you required them to do something for you first. And that may not even be necessary when it comes to building that relationship. 

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah, I think it comes down to that know, like, and trust factor. You're trying to build that Know, like, and trust factor before people buy from you. And I view gated content as a sale, you know? That is a sale. 

So if I have content behind a gate behind your, you have to give me your first name and email address, and I've got plenty of that. It's going to be very valuable. It's gonna be worth your name and email address, and hopefully you wanna hear more stuff about that from me. 

But again, it has to have value and I'm having you pay for that content because I view it as valuable. And hopefully, you know, they do too. And then, then you're purchasing it with your email address.

And I think that's what people have to look at it as is you're buying it and your email address is the payment. But I, I think, I think you do have to build a little bit of that know, Like, and trust factor first though. 

Scott Murray: 

Yes. 

Kendra Corman: 

With free content. 

Scott Murray: 

Yes. Yes. 

Kendra Corman: 

Not just expect people to go and do, whatever.

And trust me, it's good. 

Scott Murray: 

Right? I remember in some of my earlier days of marketing, I remember somebody one time saying. You know, and this was back when we were all still kind of figuring out what to do with this internet marketing stuff, digital marketing stuff. 

And their point was, and I've always remembered this and I think there's still value to this today cuz it's exactly what you just said. Which is, you know, if you can provide really great things for free, then the consumer starts to wonder, well, if it's this good when it's free, imagine how good it'll be when I pay for something.

Kendra Corman: 

Yep. Exactly. Again, it's all about value and what you can deliver, what problems you can solve, things like that. 

Now, one of the things that you mentioned was blogs and using blogs for free. I'm a big fan of blogs. I have replaced my blog with a podcast, but I am a huge fan of blogs. 

Especially for a lot of my clients who need regular content for their audience to keep them engaged and working with them, and to provide educational content, in a lot of cases, especially my nonprofits.

A lot of people keep talking about how, well you don't need a blog. And nobody looks at blogs. So, what are you recommending that companies do to improve blogs or create blogs to generate consumer interest? 

Scott Murray: 

Well, I was just working on a blog myself, about blogging. Where I was talking about just, you know, first and foremost recognizing just how much has changed in the last 10 years.

And one of the big things that's changed is like 10 years ago, I think they estimated there was like 42 million blogs out there, and I think now the number is 600 million. And the next year you're not only gonna have that many more people writing, but the bots are writing content now.

So there's a lot to compete with, but that doesn't mean that blogs become irrelevant. What it does mean is there's opportunities to stand out, because so much of that content is repetitive, click bait, and meaningless. And what surprises me sometimes is I look at some of these blogs that come from companies and I'll look at two or three, four companies and they're all writing the same content about the same things.

The titles are often very much alike and the content's alike, it's usually product driven. It's usually, here's four ways you can do this. You know, here in this blog, I use an example in the contact center space. Cuz I've worked with some companies that are some software as a service companies that help optimize contact centers with things like speech analytics.

Okay. And speech analytics have actually been around for a few years. So I actually listed on my blog a whole list of blogs I found about literally the benefits of speech analytics. All these companies had written a blog that had that phrase in it. And so it's like, you know, who knows how many others are out there where they're explaining here's why speech analytics is helpful.

And so you gotta figure with that much content out, the consumer probably doesn't need to read that blog anymore. Cause if they've looked for it, they found 900 examples of it all written the same way. 

But you know, we were talking about that marketer mindset, but in marketing that's just kind of a default way of thinking, okay, well this is a promotional vehicle with blogs.

We need to tell people why they need this. Which is another problem when you've got a company telling the consumer why they need something versus listening to what they're looking for. So there's opportunities to break out of that. 

So if you go and look at your competition right now, and that's what they're doing well, there's your opportunity.

And the things you can do now, things that are working real well now are blogs that answer questions. How much does something cost? Maybe even product, honest, transparent product comparisons. 

You know, answer things that the other company who's still stuck in the dark ages and is worrying about things like, you know, what consumers are gonna think about competitors cuz it's not the way they think anymore.

You know, talk about, you know, the things that your competition's afraid to talk about, not willing to talk about. Take a stand. You know, show where your company stands on things. And it's okay if somebody disagrees and it's okay if it's bold. Because that's what people wanna know. 

Tell people where your company stands on what's happening in the industry, why it's important to be involved, how that impacts the consumer.

You can do things like find people on, on social media that are aligned with your values as a company and start collaborating with them. Write blogs and go, Hey, you know, Frank, you know, you've been talking about stuff in our space and we think your stuff is great. It's aligned with our values. Could you send us a two or three line thought about this and we'll include it in our blog? 

And you get three, four other people that do that. You share that on social media and you tag them, and then all those thought leaders share it. There's just so many things that you can do. 

And then of course, at the same time, you can also invite people to you know, maybe share their thoughts or maybe they'll do it on their own.

And then that way you're providing a lot more depth. A lot more value. And providing a lot more meaning to a blog than just something that you do because marketers need to do that in 2023 and we gotta have something there. So, we might as well just talk about X. 

You know, that's the stuff that's gonna get lost in that, in those 600 million blogs Plus that are out there. But I mean, that's just the thing is there's opportunities to stand out.

But this goes back to that consumer experience. Stop and think. Do you, is it possible that someone's read this type of content already? And how can we be different and how can we do more than just the generic default stuff other people are doing in our space?

Kendra Corman: 

And I think one of the things that you said is that yes, there are bots writing content. Do not do it. It might seem like it helps you out a little bit and it can get you started if you need a starting place. 

But google is not considering that as good content, as good quality content. So if you're doing it and a bot's writing it, AI written content, I think Google said is they're, when they find it, they're dinging you for it.

So I think that that's a good thing to have. 

Scott Murray: 

Well, and the other thing is, you know, Google has evolved just like everything else with what they're starting to identify as valuable to their users. And that's why you can't just rely on, you know, well, let's just fill it with SEO terms and we're good. 

Because now Google's like, well, granted, it's great if they find you, but then we're a lot more interested now in what they do when they get there.

Are they staying? Are they indulging? Are they getting a good experience or are they jumping? And if it's the same old, same old stuff, or it looks like selfish content, they're gonna jump and Google's gonna recognize it. 

Kendra Corman: 

Google is smarter than all of us. Let's, if you can remember that, you'll be good. And that's why you should write your content for people, not Google.

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. 

Kendra Corman: 

Or Bing or any of the other search engines, because most of them are smarter than we are and they're looking at the data. They're looking at that data, and they're not gonna recommend content and send people to content that's selfish. 

It has to add value. You always, always, always have to think about what's in it for your reader.

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. And when we talk about value, I mean, I really think, you know, Nancy Hark just re wrote a great book about behavioral science in marketing. And I really think that's one of the best things people could look at today because it is really about tapping into an emotional response. Value that taps into an emotional response.

And in that book, she talks about how there's probably industries out there that go, well, not our audience. That's always, that's always the thing that gets me. Not our folks, not our products. Or our products sometimes, but not our folks. Our products aren't tapping into emotions like they're Vulcans or something, you know?

And she said, you know, they are, everybody taps into it. And she gives great examples in the book. In fact, one of 'em involved, if I remember right, some sort of study that involved these folks that literally had some sort of, I don't remember. 

It was a challenge or damage to the brain that kind of knocked out the emotional component in their brain and gave them things to decide on, and it was something simple like, you know what to have for lunch. And they couldn't decide. 

It just kept cycling cuz that emotional component was so important to their decision. It wasn't just the logical, the fact that the emotional was missing was playing a huge role in something as simple as, what am I gonna have for lunch? 

And I think that, When we talk about value, it really is about finding ways, and that's why the humanity element and the communication side of it's so important is to be able to provide value that generates that emotional response.

Like, yes, these people get me. Yes, these people are really here to help me. Yes, these people are putting me ahead of, you know, the bottom line in competition. And that makes me feel good and that's why I want more from this company. 

That's an emotional response. And then the logical side comes later when they're really ready to make that purchasing decision.

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. Cuz if you think about it, when you're picking lunch, what do you think? Well, what do I feel like today? 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah, exactly. 

Kendra Corman: 

Not what, what's gonna provide me with the optimal nutritional balance?

Scott Murray: 

That's right. I mean, that's why, you know, when you have that conversation with your spouse and you know, you begin to wonder if there really is a restaurant called, I don't know. 

Kendra Corman: 

Yes.

Scott Murray: 

Like, what do you wanna have? Where do you want to go? I don't know. 

You know, because if we're waiting for that emotional, oh yeah, that sounds good, let's go there. And you know, we're, when we're not finding it, we're scared we're gonna go someplace that's not gonna be fulfilling.

Kendra Corman: 

Yes, a hundred percent.

So talking about humanizing and those emotions, what are some resources companies can use to help them humanize their content? Or how do they humanize their content? 

Scott Murray: 

Well, I mean from resources standpoint. I mean, here's the thing that's so funny about the situation we're in when the internet and social media, you know, I don't mean for sound like Terminator or something. 

I was like, when the rise of social media, the rise of the internet. You know, marketers and companies, we all had to spend all this time researching and figuring it out and testing stuff. And we still have to do that to some degree. 

But now that we have a better understanding of what the consumer wants, and we start talking about human behavior or behavioral science or you know, Guy Kawasaki wrote a great book about enchanting people. 

You know, when we start talking about, you know, things that that we can succeed with on the humanization side of things. Just by basing it on human behavior, I mean, my goodness, there is, there are studies and insights on human behavior and what makes people, you know, think a certain way, feel a certain way, react a certain way that are, that are decades deep. 

We have plenty of resources to get a, get a better understanding or at least remind ourselves what's going to generate the responses that I think at the end of the day, we all want as marketers.

And on top of that, you have a lot of great books that are out there helping you do that. Mark Schaffer is very good at writing these books. You know, Marketing Rebellion clearly explained how consumers have, when they've decided somethings they don't like something, they change the game. And Marketing Rebellion goes through all of those, including the one that we're talking about today.

He's just written a new book called Belonging to the Brand which is about community focused marketing. Which is a whole nother level of emotion and humanity and belonging and making people feel like they're part of something. 

And one of the first things he cites in that book is a study by McKenzie who said the 2020s are gonna be about community marketing, and that is like next level humanization focused marketing.

Marcus Sheridan has written a book called They Ask You Answer that shows that just simply answering people's questions and not being afraid to do it can, can not only help your blog, but other parts of your business.

And all these people are on social media, places like LinkedIn, providing really great insights on what it means to do this. 

Ethan Butte has written a book about human-centered communication, and he invited all kinds of people to cover what it means to do that in email, in sales, and all the other components of marketing. 

We have plenty of resources to go out there and get, so we probably need to leave some of the more, you know, quick and easy, you know, three ways to boost your Instagram and, you know, and the you know. Things that seem to imply that we're gonna turn things around in one day and really start figuring out ways to communicate and resonate more effectively. 

Because as we start getting into things like community I mean, we're talking, you know, the, if you're still promoting while people are talking and belonging, and getting together, you're gonna feel like you're standing in the corner while everybody else is having a party.

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. No, I, and I think that there's a lot of information there and a lot of value that you were sharing. I love the community aspect, and I think that you're, what you said with the research, yeah, McKenzie was right on. 

It is all about community. Community fosters loyalty and communication. And from the selfish brand perspective, you also get information when you engage with a community and when you provide them with things. 

I use a quiz software called Interact, and I love it. They have an amazing community. They actually pay people that are experts in certain things to hold office hours. And so I can go and get feedback on my quiz, or on Facebook ads to run to market my quiz, or the technology in, you know, interaction pieces that I need.

They've got office hours several times a month. They've got just a whole community. They're using circle.so But it's, it's unbelievable the value that they provide me. That's unmatched by any other software I have. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. Yeah, and I got to recently talk to Brooke Sellis about her new book, which is great about it's called, I think it's called Conversations That Connect.

And it's all about, you know, making conversation connect on social media. It goes above and beyond even the things we were just talking about because there's elements of customer service and other aspects of person-to-person communication that social media is gonna play a big role in. And was already playing a bigger role in that goes on top of everything else we've talked about from humanization standpoint.

So I just, I think that's, that's something to keep in mind. I mean, I remember just last year when LinkedIn said, you know what? We're gonna start devaluing and kind of burying content on LinkedIn that tells people, and this kind of goes back to what we were saying before that tells people, "like, comment, share." Because people find it annoying. 

And again, it goes back to quit telling us what to do. But when we, when we think about the type of things you're talking about and type things Brook's talking about in our conversation, the idea really should be if the content is meaningful and has value, they're going to generate those responses without you having to tell 'em to do it. 

Kendra Corman: 

And I think it's, I think some of the stuff is, you know, sometimes people need reminders. That's why that's always worked in the past. You know, they don't necessarily think about doing it all the time. 

But I do think that creating a connection, people want personal and personalized content. They don't just want it dear name, like whoever, whatever their name is. And then content. That's not personalized. 

Scott Murray: 

Right? 

Kendra Corman: 

Personalized content speaks to them. The more specific you are with your audience, the more you know them. And the better you know them, the more likely your content's going to engage them.

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. And you know that type of content strategy has to evolve in order to get you there. It's one of the reasons why, as helpful as technology can be sometimes and in the right ways, whether it's automation or email blast or whatever. 

And we're all looking for things like numbers. You know how many touchpoints, of course, those touchpoints keeps changing over time. It's five, then it's nine, then it's 10, then it's 12, you know? 

And you know, you look at like an email strategy. You know, it might be just a matter of, you know, stopping and thinking, you know, is it better for us to blast this out to thousands of people with the hopes that it might do, you know, this with this many people?

And start to kind of narrow that list down to make it a little more, to make it easier to start personalizing more of that content. And when that starts to work with certain groups of people spending more time curating that relationship and building long-term value over time with that relationship.

And, you know, others might just fall off. You're now talking to people who are interested in what you have to offer. And on top of that, you know, we're finding that as companies are focusing more on, you know, more human communication, human value focused marketing. It gets challenging for the technologies to be able to give us everything we need to know, and we have to figure out other ways to measure.

I've seen people talking on LinkedIn about, you know, when you have those forms, that people have to fill out. It might be a good idea nowadays to ask them how they found you, because the attribution software is focused on these, just these three things in its algorithm and might give you a higher number than what's really happening.

Whereas if you have options like podcast, online community, social media, stuff like that, you might be surprised how many people are finding you through those channels. And that might also help drive where you can start having some of those more humanized and long-term value conversations with people.

Kendra Corman: 

And I think what's important there too is the relationship. You're building a relationship. Even if you're building it at scale with a bunch of people, it's still all about creating a relationship. 

I've recently talked to, to several people, and I recently had Tracy Beavers on the podcast, and she and I talked about it, and it's not about quantity.

Scott Murray: 

No. 

Kendra Corman: 

It's about quality. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. 

Kendra Corman: 

So it's not about having 8,000 people on your email list or 80,000 people on your email list. You could probably do more and do better with 500, a thousand, you know, 250. If you have the right people that are engaged and that find value in what you're providing. 

And again, long-term value is what you wanna provide them. It's much better than having just numbers stop chasing numbers. 

Scott Murray: 

Well, and the, yeah, I mean, after a while it almost defaults to maybe even thinking of people as numbers. You know, I remember years ago when Chris Brogan said, "quit treating people like wallets."

You know, it's quit treating people like numbers is I think is up there too.

And I think when it comes to that quantity, I mean obviously content, Fits in that too. You know, you still see a lot of companies that are just, you can tell that the quality of like a blog isn't that good because they're putting so many out. 

And not spending more of that time creating one good, solid piece of content with resources and insights and opportunities to create conversation. Or even come back next time and get more from you.

Because the objective isn't that value and the time spent on quality. And so we gotta get stuff out there so people can find us. And that might have been okay like 10 years ago, but as we just pointed out, I mean, we've had several years of that. And there are other things you can do now to help build quality over quantity. 

Again, especially if you're in an industry where your competition is doing nothing but looking for quantity over quality, that's, that's your seam of opportunity, right there is, okay, that's what they're doing. This is how we're gonna stand out. And then by the time the competition goes, holy crap, look what's happening.

And they start doing it. The relationship has already started with your company and that's how you. 

Kendra Corman: 

And I think I love Brian Dean of Backlinko. I love his blogs. His blogs are forever long, but sometimes he only puts out two or three a year. That was it. But it's got videos, it's got links, it's got swipe files, it's got everything that you could ever imagine in one blog. 

It's got hyperlinks that'll take you down to specific parts of his blog because it's so long and so valuable. I mean, some of his blogs are more valuable than downloadables that you would pay for with your email address. There's just so much great content in them. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. And sometimes if the content's that good, you don't feel like you need to go anywhere else. And that's something that can also help drive how you put a blog together.

Because that's one of the things that is going to impact things as Google starts rolling out Google helpful content updates. You know, if people feel like they need to go other places to get what you haven't provided, that's gonna be a challenge.

But, you know, the opportunity is there. But yeah, put the time and effort into it. You know, and those are all things that we learn. I mean, when social media first came out, I remember the strategy was get on all of them. You know, we gotta be on all of them. And then people 

Kendra Corman: 

grab your name, hurry up. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah, that's right.

Kendra Corman: 

It's gonna go away. 

Scott Murray: 

Grab your name. 

And I feel like over time people figured out, okay, well how about we just go where our audience is. And focus our time and resources as limited as they are on that. And I think you can take a similar approach to blog. When it comes to the, you know, the value you can provide.

You don't have to have one out a day to provide value especially if people know they can keep coming back once or twice a week and find more great stuff from you, whether it's blog. That's definitely true of podcast. 

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. No, I think that there's a lot of very valuable content out there, and I think you need to think about the level of value you wanna be known for. Your brand will be impacted by the content you provide. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, I sometimes wonder if some of the old-fashioned terminology we use, you know, we're talking about stop being a marketer. But I even think sometimes the terminology that we've known for years sometimes creates a mindset that limits, I guess out of the box or out of the ordinary thinking. 

You know, when we start thinking about things like, I mean, even the word conversion is kind of scary, isn't it, when you think about it? You know, that sounds like we're spending our time trying to convince somebody of something through any sort of means.

And really we should be probably thinking of a different word when it comes to what we're trying to achieve. Maybe content needs to be changed because then it just sounds like we're creating this stuff that hopefully somebody watches or reads. And really, that isn't the only thing we're trying to achieve.

We're really trying to create resources more than anything. And I know that there's probably a better word than resources, but just, you know, we talk about an emotional response. When people start talking, when consumers are talking about it, I don't even know if consumers say I get great content from them.

They may say, I get great insights or answers or resources from them. So you know, and that goes back to the whole emotional response. I don't know if, you know, "I'm getting content from them," you know, really generates any kind of emotion when you say it. 

But when you say they're so helpful, they provide so much value, you know, they clearly are in it for me. That feels good to say. 

And you know, I, there there's just a lot of almost transformational thinking that almost needs to take place first before you start evolving your communication and content. It, and I think that goes a long way. 

And I think that's true in a lot of aspects of life. It's not much different from when a, you know, maybe a self-help person says. You know, if you get laid off. Don't look at it as a job loss. Think of it as a path to a new opportunity. I, you know, it changes the way you're approaching everything you do from that point. 

And marketing might benefit from doing some things like that too. When it comes to terminology we've used for maybe perhaps too long.

Kendra Corman: 

No, I like that a lot because yeah, it's not about content. It is about value and resources and being helpful because that's what we wanna do. 

I had a conversation with someone not too long ago and you made me think of it because they were like, oh, look at this person that competes against me and see how he's got these great videos that go with this search term. And he comes up as like highlighted in on the first page of Google. 

And I'm like, that's great. 

And he's like, "okay, I wanna do something like that."

I said, sounds great. What is the problem that your customers are searching for? What's the problem that they are trying to get answered?

Cuz that's what these videos that this other guy did, they're answering a problem that people are having and they're searching for a solution and his video fits that solution 100%. 

And he goes, "well, I don't know." 

And I'm like, well. 

He goes, "but here's the words I think I should use." 

And I was like, okay. Well, are any of those words the ones that your customers are using? Or your prospects? 

"I think so."

I'm like, okay, we need to know so. You know, we need to understand what problem you want to solve for them and then build content around that. And you know, again, he came back to me not too long ago and we were talking again about his audience.

He still cannot tell me why they'll call him. What's the straw that. 

"Well, they don't have enough time." 

Yeah. Nobody has enough time. 

Scott Murray: 

Right? 

Kendra Corman: 

What made that a priority? That now they wanna get it fixed. Because there's a lot of like annoying gnat little things that I just wave off, right? But at some point it becomes a major problem that I have to solve.

Scott Murray: 

Yes. 

Kendra Corman: 

Right? 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. I mean, and cuz the next thing that's gonna happen is, a lot of times you're gonna be, you know, Through your marketing efforts, your content op efforts, you're probably gonna have to experiment a little bit about, you know, what works when it comes to conveying how you solve that problem and what resonates.

And, you know, there's so many great things that are coming and are really beginning to build some steam. Like social listening. And even social listening takes some work. 

I remember taking a few years ago, Social media marketing courses, certification courses from Northwestern University through Coursera. And they were talking about how social listening was so, was such a big deal even back then. 

But I love the point they brought up because you, you not only need to know what they're looking for, but how they talk about it on social media. And they were talking about. 

They were talking about how, well, you know, Chevy, Chevrolet might get into their social listening and start saying, okay, who's talking about Chevrolet? And they may miss all the people that call them Chevy and call them bow tie. 

So, you know, that's why it's so important to know also how people talk about you. The other thing that I'm seeing now that I think is really, really helpful, when we. Especially if we focus on communication, because the communication aspect of everything we're discussing, we're, we're really focused on the external. 

But the internal is just as important. How does the company talk openly about their mission, their values, their customers? And then how does that, how are people trained to convey those messages when interacting with people online or anywhere else? 

And another thing that could help that is, you know, there's a lot of companies that are still siloed in their departments. You know, that rivalry between sales and marketing, or something. Sales could really help marketing. You know, 

Kendra Corman: 

Do you have any ideas how many products were not sold at companies that I worked for, cuz they didn't have the right flyer? 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. 

Kendra Corman: 

Marketing didn't gimme the right flyer. It didn't have the right picture on it. It had a green motorcycle, not a blue one. And therefore, I couldn't sell it. 

And I'm like, are you kidding me?

Scott Murray: 

Well, and on the flip side, I worked for a company at one point in time that spent. I mean, money, time, effort, resources, content. Everybody was involved from C-level all the way down. Getting this stuff out about, you know, this is something that we have figured out and you, the consumer, need to know it. 

I mean, time, it was everything and everybody internally was excited about it. And it struggled to really gain traction. There were marketing reasons for it because the messaging was a little inconsistent and sometimes even repetitive in at a time where people needed to really kind of figure out what they were talking about.

But then I talked to somebody on the sales side which was never part of the process. And I asked them, you know, we're spending all this time and effort on this. I said, are you hearing anybody when you talk to about our business talk, you know, talk about this or talk about any interest in this?

And he said, no. He said they want to know how much does this cost, how much they can get, what they're limited to, where they can have these things and where they can't have these things. 

They want the fundamental questions that is front of mind. They don't care about this. A simple conversation with a sales team might have saved a lot of time, you know. Or at least an o an opportunity to maybe refocus how we were framing it and where that could still fit in.

It just might not have needed to be the end all be all for why somebody wants to do business with that company. 

Kendra Corman: 

And I tell all of my clients, especially when I'm working, I love when I work with a newer marketing person that's in a company and I'm trying to help mentor them along the way.

A little bit of questions they should be asking and things like that so they can get better content. And they're like, well, I should be able to approve more stuff myself. 

And I'm like, well, first of all, you're not really that good. Okay. That's the inside voice. But then the outside voice, I'm like, why? What makes you an expert when those people are talking to the customer every day?

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. 

Kendra Corman: 

You're not an expert. They're the expert. They should be approving the content and the direction. You are a service department. 

Like I look at marketing as a service to the rest of the company and to their customers and clients. And if you take that service mentality, I think that that fixes a lot of the issues.

Scott Murray: 

Well, you know, if you have a culture that you know already has good lines of humanized communications internally. And I don't mean even just talking about you know, customers. I'm talking about how people are treated internally. The mental health aspects of the company. You know, the respect factor for everybody in the company, the lines of communication.

I mean, if you have a culture like that, it's probably gonna be a lot easier for you to translate that culture into the respectful and meaningful and humanized way. You talk to people externally and people are gonna recognize that. 

And it's interesting because just like we're seeing all these studies being done and these radical changes taking place in marketing, we're also seeing things like the great resignation and an increased focus on more benefits for people that work for companies, and a bigger focus on mental health. 

And also a bigger focus on, you know, yeah, it's a, it's a job, but you know, you know, life is important too. Life outside of work is important at the same. 

And if you have a culture like that, it's probably a lot easier to say, okay, making money is important, but so is providing value to the consumer. So, you know, it's, I think people are also beginning to figure out that internal culture, most certainly more than ever it can impact just how well you know, those humanized value-based communications are taking place externally. 

And then what people are saying about your company as a result, that's becoming a big deal. When I was taking those courses at Northwestern, I remember they said, you know, if you search some of the biggest brands on Google. Some of the first results are gonna be user generated content. 

And it's true because I've, I heard something about Walmart the other day. I wanted to look it up. So, I typed in Walmart and two or three of the first things I saw were things written by other people about Walmart before I saw content from Walmart.

Kendra Corman: 

Yeah. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah.

Kendra Corman: 

No, we have a lot of power. I mean, people talk about the press and things like that. One of the best things I heard was somebody who had headed up the Associated Press office in DC a long time ago. 

And he's like, he said, we as consumers, as viewers, you carry more power in your cell phone than any reporter does anymore. And you have to think about that. 

I mean, again, we're, as a consumer, we are so powerful and I think that that's really important to keep in mind. And I've really loved having our conversation. Before I let you go though, I do want to ask you one question that I ask everybody.

The show is called Imperfect Marketing cuz marketing is anything but perfect. Right? 

Scott Murray: 

Right. 

Kendra Corman: 

And I, so I'm dying to know what your biggest marketing lesson learned has been.

Scott Murray: 

Well, you know, you mentioned the 20 years thing with me at the beginning and I joke about that cuz it dates me a little bit. Because, you know, my first marketing jobs, well first off I do video production, I do video stuff on the side and did a lot more of it probably on a grander scale in the early 2000s. But when I got my bachelor's, I was the last class to take analog video editing. 

And then my first advertising job was audio messages that came from dialing a phone number in this thing called the phone book. And then my first ad agency job was in recruitment advertising, where most of our focus was newspaper ads and magazine publication ads.

So one of the advantages I have is I've watched all of this change in the last 20 years and paid close attention to what it takes to evolve with it. 

And I think my biggest marketing lesson out of that experience is that marketers are no longer in control. And that goes to what you were just saying about consumers.

Consumers are in control. They're telling you what they want, they're making it clear. And one of the ways they make it clear when it comes to not selling and advertising and start having conversations.

I mean, think about what we all do to avoid advertising. We'll pay extra not to have advertising in our content.

We will, you know, do all kinds of things to avoid advertising. We'll block it. We will ignore it. We'll minimize it, like I talked about. 

They are in control. It's, you know, if you were in that marketing stage back in the day, you were in control because you had a captive audience in front of a television, a newspaper or a radio, and you could just say they're gonna be there. We need to convince 'em to call our number or to go to our store. 

And it was that easy. And you weren't competing with nearly as many things. You didn't have, you know, the paper couldn't hold as much as the internet can. 

But the consumers are in control. They are in full control. The marketers are not in control anymore, and that's why everything we do has to be focused on them because if it's not, they will go find somebody who is focused on them.

And that is going to be, that's a train that's never gonna go away. And I think the recognition of things like community marketing is proof that it's just gonna continue to evolve into more humanized trends, you know, as people want it. 

And one of the things that Mark points out in his book is, you know, loneliness and disconnection from the world, you know, through technology. And another thing has created a lot of challenges with people. And there is a bigger desire to have meaningful human connection now than probably ever before. 

And brands can play a role in that. But it takes understanding that you've gotta put them first and evolving your content and your strategy to go with it.

But that is probably the biggest thing that I've seen is marketers are in control. We're not anymore, consumers are in control of the game.

Kendra Corman: 

So if you're a control freak, you need to sort of get over it. 

Scott Murray: 

Yeah. 

Kendra Corman: 

Right? No, so I think, this was great conversation. 

Thank you so much for your time, Scott. I really do appreciate it and I really hope that you listening got some value out of my conversation with Scott, cuz that's always the purpose, right? 

And I don't wanna sound selfish, but if you did get something out of it and you feel like rating and subscribing, I would love it if you would do that wherever you listen to your podcast.

So that way you get the most up-to-date information, but if you don't feel like it, you don't have to. I don't want you to think you have to based on our conversation with Scott. 

So again, thank you again for tuning in to another episode of Imperfect Marketing. I look forward to seeing you on a future episode.