Imperfect Marketing

Episode 138: The Art and Science of Email Marketing: A Conversation with Jon Weberg

October 05, 2023 Kendra Corman Episode 138
Imperfect Marketing
Episode 138: The Art and Science of Email Marketing: A Conversation with Jon Weberg
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Think email marketing is a relic of the past? Prepare to have your mind changed as we unpack its untapped potential with top 1% growth consultant, John. He firmly counters the misconception that email marketing is dead by revealing its status as the most effective form of marketing to date. We uncover the secret to building solid relationships with customers through problem-solving and the artistry of storytelling. John brings to light the importance of swiftly identifying potential buyers in your list of leads and leveraging this knowledge to your advantage.

Key Takeaways:

  1. Email Marketing is Not Dead: Despite the common misconception, email marketing remains one of the highest-converting forms of marketing, offering significant ROI.
  2. Quality Over Quantity: It's not about how many emails you send; it's about the value you provide. Building a relationship with your audience is crucial for long-term success.
  3. List Hygiene: Keeping your email list clean is essential. Segment your audience based on their interests and engagement levels to improve deliverability and conversion rates.
  4. Multiple Sales Pages: Jon suggests having between three to eight different sales pages to cater to various audience types and emotional triggers. This can significantly improve conversion rates.
  5. Self-Selection: Allow your audience to choose what they want to see. This not only improves engagement but also helps in better targeting and conversion.
  6. Consistency is Key: To stay top-of-mind, you need to be in your audience's inbox frequently. But remember, it's not spamming if you're adding value.
  7. Be Careful When Outsourcing: Jon shares a cautionary tale about hiring agencies without proper vetting, emphasizing the importance of due diligence.

Related Resources:

  1. "Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion" by Robert B. Cialdini - A book that delves into the psychology behind why people say "yes" and how to apply these understandings in various aspects of marketing. https://amzn.to/3La2KYS 
  2. "Building a StoryBrand" by Donald Miller - This book helps you clarify your brand message so customers will listen.  https://amzn.to/3PoADHX
  3. Google Analytics - A tool to track and report website traffic, useful for gauging the effectiveness of your email marketing campaigns. https://marketingplatform.google.com/about/analytics/
  4. ConvertKit Email Marketing:  kendracorman.com/ck
  5. Constant Contact Email Marketing: kendracorman.com.cc
  6. FREE Defining Your Target Audience Guide: https://kendracorman.com/targetaudience

Connect with Jon at his website here: https://www.profitalize.com/

Tune in to learn how to make the most out of your email marketing efforts and avoid common pitfalls. This episode is a goldmine of information you won't want to miss!

Please note that some links may be affiliate links and I may receive compensation should you choose to purchase from those links. You are not required in any way, shape or form to use the link.



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Speaker 1:

Hello and welcome back to Imperfect Marketing. I'm your host, Kendra Corman. With me today is John. He's an American entrepreneur, top 1% growth consultant and business master. After becoming a two-time self-published author, running three separate businesses and speaking front of global audiences, his wealth of actionable knowledge is impacting the masses. He has taken time out of his busy schedule to share some of that actionable knowledge with us. John, welcome and thank you so much for joining me today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate that Very nice intro.

Speaker 1:

I love the fact that one of the things that you speak on is email marketing. It's one of my passion. Go ahead. I know that people have mixed feelings about it. Everybody's been talking about how email is dead for at least 15 years now Fort and Quilt Exactly. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts about email marketing.

Speaker 2:

First of all, actually, I'd like to say that it's the highest converting form of marketing to date. I believe the average, especially like bigger companies, they return on investment on email marketing. I think it's many, many, many, many times. First of all, it's the best. Number two most like the reason you don't see results in email marketing whoever is doing it, it's dead. It doesn't work. I emailed a few times and I didn't get 500 buyers in six seconds. It's because you're not doing it right, You're not doing it frequently enough, You're not doing it from a variety of perspectives. There's so many things that people get wrong about email marketing that they don't consider because it's. For me, it's the most powerful, widespread way to build an actual relationship with every single person on your email list. People use it as promo and selling. That's part of it. That's like 10% of the email marketing equation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. You need to be adding value and building a relationship, because people want to buy from people that they know like and trust. Email is one of those ways to do that, and if someone trusts you enough to give you their email address, that means that they're welcoming you into your inbox. I find a lot of people struggle with email marketing, and I hear this all the time oh, I don't do it because I don't want to send spam.

Speaker 2:

That is my favorite horrible objects that I can cover in two seconds, and that's if you're not spamming people. Even if I get email from some people five times a day, you're not spamming people If you're sending them things A they're interested in. B if you're consistently solving your problems and getting them the solutions they're looking for. They look forward, they love your emails. For example, I follow Frank Kern. He's one of my favorite email marketers, slash marketer, digital marketers of all time. Frank Kern I open nearly every single one of his emails. Even if I'm never going to buy his truck, I know he's doing some A ideal. He's been promoting it for three months. I open still almost all of his emails because I actually like the guy that. I love his brand, because in his previous emails and all of his content he sent in the emails and sales to his emails, which are just as important as the emails themselves. He's actually built relationships. They'll just buy this, go here, sell this. That's the vast majority of all communication through email needs to be value driven, build relationship. Storytelling of how the business started, how the product service got created, how you're going to help the customer in question get results, social there's so many different things Plus the same delivery rates, email segmentation new name.

Speaker 1:

And I agree with you on that. It's really important again to be adding value and building a relationship. That's what it does, and you're not sending spam. If you're sending spam, you're doing this all wrong.

Speaker 2:

You're not and, again, you're never spamming someone if they signed up in the first place. I always remember they signed up to get this messaging in the first place they wanted and you need to email them often because, as well, your job your job as a business is not just building relationship was to actually help your leads and have them become a customer because you believe so strongly in your product and services and the results they will generate. So it is your job to contact your audience as much as you possibly can to get them to buy from you. Again, if you truly believe strongly in what you're actually selling, if you are pushed out there not just the email marketing on daily basis, content, your advertising, what you're doing, everything needs to be a constant push in the marketplace, which is essentially what Grant Cardone gets right. Grant Cardone in the digital marketing world gets a lot of hate and he gets a lot of love. The one message he has that's entirely accurate business is speed. Speed to reach as many leads as possible. Speed to build that relationship with those leads. Speed to you name it, business, do it. Do it first, do it. You're going to bring the majority of the marketplace to a few of the majority of the time.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's important to know like people are like oh, I don't want to send you off because I don't want people to unsubscribe. But my thought is, if they're unsubscribing, then they're not your right target audience, or they're not your right audience that you're going to convert into sales eventually.

Speaker 2:

anyway, If they're most likely going to unsubscribe anything. That's the thing is, too, it's actually better to get them off your list faster to know. Okay, how many leads am I actually dealing with? Let's just say you did, you did a ad campaign on LinkedIn or YouTube somewhere and you pushed a thousand leads into it. You think you have a thousand leads to work with, but really you can probably have about 700 who are actually interested and again, you want to push away the strong message people who are not going to buy anyways, get them off your list as early as possible, because the longer they retain the extra that's just like email marketing, health management the longer they retain on your list and they're engaged but not, they're not opening, but they're not clicking. You want them off your list. Push off, because otherwise the ad she signifies based on the total number of leads you're sending to versus the percent of them that are opening and clicking. It signifies to email providers oh yeah, etc. Any of them hey, your emails aren't, your emails aren't being open. Let's stop delivering them to as many people as possible. So actually push seriously, get as much strong messaging value, of course, everything you can immediately to get through the best drivers and then clean your list of those balances, of the total heart opening marketing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, list hygiene is so important. People are always chasing numbers and while your list health in terms of seeing it grow is always good, seeing it go down isn't always a bad thing. It's not about quantity, it's about quality. So how do you recommend people increase the quality of their leads when they're leveraging different forms of advertising?

Speaker 2:

So quality of leads is usually dependent on number one, the advertising you're using to bring in the lead, because most people, just like you're saying it's all about quality. Most advertising you're taught I want to have the greatest, best, amazing deal possible. That is good. You do want an amazing offer that incentivize your audience. Question is how open you have that deal to with their copyrighting copyrighting in language you are using in your advertising. Anything lead genre Are you? We help and work with everyone possible, regardless of their situation, in any circumstance. You name it. Let's say you have very broad, open messaging to everyone who could possibly ever write a product services. The biggest problem with that is most of the time you bring in a lot of other tire kickers, a lot of people who actually don't have an interest and who also cannot afford. The best thing you can do with advertising lead genus to make sure when you're creating any kind of ad you're hyper targeting and actually initially in some YouTube videos some people literally say if you are not a six figure business owner who owns a dental dental office or who owns this type of business, leave that immediately. This is not for you. You want to call out to your specific, exact audience or work with who could afford and actually has the interest in your practice services, versus just like it may be used, that. So you want to understand your audience very, very in depth, call out exactly to them and as well, not just on your advertising but also in the copy on your landing page, on any anything in your actual sales process or your funnels use language that keeps out. So you don't want to keep some who you do want to manage to quality these because, again, let's just say, some people who cannot afford or do not want your credit service very deeply from your advertising. If you tell them not to opt in or not to buy, they're going to anyways. So you need a double filtering process of your messaging and your follow up in your emails as well Great places to keep a whole you don't want and only bring in exact customer you want, because reason for this is to conversion rates will be a lot higher, the health of your email marketing list will be a lot better and you'll retain customers for longer. And this is the biggest. One of the biggest things that business is customer retention. It's the king of all profit. The second marketing is the king of all.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I think again talking about getting specifically who you want on your email list. If your target is everyone, nobody is going to stay on your email list because you can't relate to everyone with your specific message.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's a big issue, but again it's because we're all so hungry, for I need leads and again, every business is hungry for the life and quality of your business. It should be your focus. When you're so hungry, you negate taking such a close attention to your messaging who you're actually bringing in. It's the biggest issue people have on sales calls. High-ticket, low-ticket e-commerce, it does not matter. You want someone who really wants what you're offering and who is very closely in your like. Russell Brunson talked about the 3100. That's what you want your customer to be used. Who is someone who's going to buy or product services is going to be a customer for 10 years, 20 years? These are the types of people I want to work with. These are the types of people I want to spend my money on, because another huge issue with advertising and LinkedIn that does not work talk about is let's just say, you spend $10,000 a month on ads on YouTube and you're reaching out to everyone possible within a reason. You're still hitting your target market, but within your target market, everyone possible. For the 40% of leads who you're generating who don't have interest or who cannot afford what you're offering, you're wasting 40% of your ad spend just on that, on leads who will never buy, not including the other 50%. You still have to convince and persuade and follow up with them to do these other things to buy, which may be 10% or maybe less most likely less, especially if you're not emailing often enough. You're wasting all of your ad spend and it's actually costing you more money to go after and let everyone wants to buy your stuff. The more concise it's almost not niching down you can still have a broader audience. Broader audience for the filter on it to only get the right people. Yet it's a huge thing for increasing conversions, which increases profits, and decreasing lead costs without wasted leads, which also increases profits, which allows for more leads and scaling to get.

Speaker 1:

That's so great. One of the things that we talked about is a little bit about some of the unknown email marketing practices that you teach. Why don't you share a little bit about those?

Speaker 2:

The main one I have because people teach about email segmentation. Email segmentation is great, list hygiene is great, filtering and leaping is great. The biggest thing that I do that converts way higher than anything else I've ever seen and literally not a single. Most businesses I talked to don't email at all. Doing this is 10 steps forward, but it's needed. When you email most people, when they email their audiences, of course, you build value the little bit. Most people send them to the same sales page over and over again until they try to get them to buy. If they don't buy, they put them into a no buyer segment. Email can't pass. The issue is with this. Just think about like you're talking to a kid and you you offer them my ice cream color the first time. They go no, I'm good. No, like for anyone. You offer someone I should go, they go no thanks. The fifth time. You ask them the same exact way. You want an ice cream no thanks. The 10th time. You name it and that's the sales page you're sharing them to when you're emailing them is most people have only one single sale page or one general perspective, which you should have one. You should put Tesla optimized to reverse high thoughts. But past the third, the fourth, the fifth, the 20th time you follow up with lead, you're sending them the exact same sale page for the exact same messaging. They're not going to buy. So the best thing anyone can do is to make sure you have, I say, a bare minimum of between three and eight different sales pages, all from different perspectives. The first one is the one that has your general guides of who we are, what we offer, how we can help you the general guideline of a sales page. Next you have one that is all based only on social proof. You have another sales page that's based entirely on walking through how you came up the idea, behind the truck. So, number four, one video that's a funny skip, explaining something about your business in a humorous, fun way. Take a look at purple, the brand purple and the advertising or any advertising done by the Harmon brothers Very funny, very entertaining, used up. What is sale pages you're sending your audience to? And again, just continue with having a variety of different ways to relate with your audience in the sales pages you are sending to your audience. So I recommend at least a nine to 21 day email sequence. After about three to five emails initially, the next three to five, probably three to three to four, you send a different sales page and those different status. You keep doing that and going through each and every single one and then, once someone in your audience has hit all these different sales data, all these different emails, then if they don't buy, then you segment them out to a different email list or to a different email segment. Because then you actually say, okay, I've tried to relate with them from every single possible perspective, as many different ways, ideas, emotionally, logically. Now, if they're not interested, maybe they need a different product and service, maybe they want something else. So offer and have built three to five, maybe eight, if you want to go crazy different sales pages, different perspectives, the conversion rates from it. The conversion you'll see from it is from three to 10 times. Where I do a lot of affiliate marketing, for example, in all my affiliate marketing we outperform people who have email lists by 20 times the size of ours. Because we actually convert, because we deeply build the audience by relating not just email copy but with the sales pages, strategy setting.

Speaker 1:

That's a really interesting way of thinking about it. So I really like what you're talking about. Because you're not psychic, you don't necessarily know what's going to motivate someone right at that period of time. Yes, you can do a bunch of research and do interviews and really understand your target audience, but if you're trying to relate to more than one person and again each sales page should be written to one person in your target audience, right? They still have different personality.

Speaker 2:

Yep, yep, and that's the point is relating to each of those personality types, because people don't realize. No, you have this general sales page you're optimizing, which is good. You should have that. You should do that is. Some people are even more. They're super logical. They want social proof, they want testimonials, they want a case study, they want a lot of facts and figures. Some people are all emotional. I want a story, I want a funny skit, I want to be obtained, I want to see that you have a smile, you actually mean what you say. Again, with one sales page, only so many people who are within the range of what they like on your sales page are going to react to that. You have to keep changing your messaging, keep changing the perspectives. Again, you can even optimize each of those three to eight or three to five sales pages you have optimize their messaging, still written towards your target audience, just with a different main perspective. And yes, it's really dealing with audience types, different types of people, different types of people who are more Logical, more emotional, who care about different things, and you're basically relating and building relationships. Many of them is hostile by doing this. And another quick note too is some people, again, maybe they really do love or like your messaging on that page but it just doesn't get them seeing it a third or fifth time. Something else that they're very logical and they do like some emotional stuff, but they need something else to relate to. Like with Frank Curran, I really relate to his humor but if I would have never seen his humor maybe I would have never related to it. By only size, serious size, you have to show that you're more than just to product and service that you're offering.

Speaker 1:

I like that, and one of the things that I really liked that you said was nine to 21 emails right In a middle.

Speaker 2:

So it is.

Speaker 1:

It is a long series. It is okay to let people know that stuff. If you are scared of people and subscribing, what I usually do is have a hey. If you don't want any more of these, click on here and I'll remove you from this list. If you're totally not interested in my email marketing course or my podcast course or whatever it happens to be, I can remove you and not give you any more of that category, so that you still stay on my list and are potentially a customer, just not for that product.

Speaker 2:

Yep, and that's a big thing too is people don't realize that their nose are still valuable. They know you're getting for people who are opening, who are quick, who are engaged in that's just as valuable. So those people, yeah, like you're saying, segment them or give them some kind of form they can fill out or an option to go to a different segment to have interest. And even if you, what you could do to maximize is here's five I've noticed you're not opening and click you could send us to people who are not engaged in my emails. Please let us know what you would like to see here. Click the button. I'm going to follow up out of their interests, xyz practice or Schroffer list. Five of them. They can choose to move by. They go into that sequence automatically, stuff like that's excellent and it's creative and it's different. And that's what you have to do is, again, people don't realize that in business, in lead generation, in email marketing, in anything, you're really actually working with people. You're not working with a customer, not working with your avatar. You're working with a person who likes real, genuine thought, real genuine feeling in. You may not think they do, but they do feel that from you. It's why people like certain companies so strongly because they feel the feeling of that. That's why I talk about Frank Curran so much and I keep doing it, because I actually I feel what he tries to bring to the world and when you do that in your business and you do that by personalizing content, your audience is seeing as well. That's a huge part of optimizing your emails getting you not going to the sandbox, getting people actually interested, opening, clicking, doing any more sales, all that stuff.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the good things is I love the idea of having people self select. That's one of the things that I preach in all of my email marketing lesson, because it saves you time, like, let's get people out of there, I'm good.

Speaker 2:

And again it brings it's law hire converting because it brings people to exactly what they want, based on what they're saying, and also, maybe they'll select a different choice that maybe I want to learn about this instead and keep switching. By doing that, by having a choice, they'll keep going on a multiple different lists, like we're saying, and they'll build. They'll build, you'll build value with them in each of those different things they're looking for, even if they, even if they keep hopping around. And this is where I think lead retention, which no one talks about. The retention comes because people don't realize I don't want to spam my email list, I don't want to email them too often. I don't want all these things we're talking about just because you're going to be forgotten very quickly, especially in today's market, for people who are not wanting to emailing or you barely email, which is vast majority of every audience have ever talked to. Like seriously, listen to this. You're competing against someone's spouse, someone's kids, someone's personal life, their finances, their health. That's not including your direct competitors, who are emailing them more often, especially if they're good businesses, and that's not including other businesses who are not your competitors but who are selling up their email box and also selling, so no one's going to compete with my spouse or my kids or any part of my life. Get alone. All of the point of this is saying you have so much to compete with, you have to be in their inbox often, frequently. If you're not building relationship, you might as well not do email marketing, because you're not going to get customers and you're not going to serve anyone, which is your goal and your. What you're supposed to is help serve people because you believe in your practice or what that is.

Speaker 1:

I think one of the things I read is I think 6% of your Facebook followers will see your business posts. Facebook is a pay-to-play marketplace and I think that might be high, but again, people choose when they're engaging and what they engage with on social media. Your stuff may or may not show up in their feed. You are at the mercy of those other people. You own your email marketing. You are controlling when you're in their inbox and they control whether or not they want to see you. Let them have that power. Give that to them. Let them do what they need to do and, again, a lot of them are going to like engaging with your content because they signed up for a reason. That's why email is so effective because it is permission-based. Yep.

Speaker 2:

It's like self-selective and the more you focus on that and be as genuine, genuine, upfront in your communication with them, using everything we have gone through you name it you're going to relate to get messages. We get messages in my business of people who have been on my email list for 10 years. They'll go hey, this because I do a lot of storytelling and sharing personal stories and so on, and people relate to that a lot. So they'll write back and get responses of books written not literally, but paragraphs, and paragraphs is how much they relate and love. That's what people want in response to business, because it shows us that we're actually helping people. As you watch, you're going to have a response like that. What people who tell you in an online business, you don't really get that a lot because you're not working like one to one with people, especially if you're doing it at the mass market. So it's nice to hear and see from people Wow, you actually appreciate, you love my emails. Maybe they don't even buy it, but they at least like what you're telling them. That makes you feel great and that's why I think where a lot of us are actually getting business, you want to feel good with accomplished, about actually getting people results in their lives, even if it's just they think a little bit better about the day. But I'm a very personable, loving person. I want people to feel good and be happy, so I try to put that into my investing. It's much like you.

Speaker 1:

I think that's great. Thank you so much, John, for everything that you've been sharing with me and those listening and watching. I do appreciate it. Before I let you go, I do have to ask you the question that I ask everybody, and that is this show is called Imperfect Marketing because, as we all know, marketing is anything but a perfect science. What has been your biggest marketing lesson learned?

Speaker 2:

It was a big one. And this is where anyone who's looking to outsource, anyone who's looking to hire an agency, be very careful who you select to work. It's just like when you partner with business. When you're selecting, you're targeting for your lead generation. Anything. Be careful, be thought out and make educated estimations of the results you're going to see. So I hired an agency. My dad and I in my affiliate marketing business, we're partnered together. We hired an SEO agency because we know SEO. If you do it right, seo can be free leads for the life of your business. That scales. It's very, very. We hired the first agency. We were doing some SEO ourselves and it was doing okay. We hired the first agency and after six months and after about $20,000 to $30,000, there was zero growth of any kind, like by our Google back office, google Analytics, zero increase in clicks, zero increase in page views. So we go, you know what? We made? Another mistake let's hire another one, because maybe the first one wasn't that good, maybe there's a better one out there. So, again, you should outsource, you should hire DAs, you should hire for things you can't do. But if you can do it or only be very selective in who you work with very selective. We worked. We didn't look enough at the testimonials, we didn't look enough to source proof. We didn't actually contact them and say, hey, we work with so-and-so agency. How good are they actually? It's acting agency. Another six months goes by $13,000. Zero, I think maybe it was 5%. Between zero and 5% of growth for an agency is really bad. So $60,000 or so later, after we also hired a consultant for a couple months. The consultant was. He helped us grow some, but not within the reason we needed. Very, very, very extensive mistake. So I tell everyone make sure you work with, don't be afraid to spend money if you're for sure of the quality of the work that's going to be done. But also read contracts very carefully. Read contracts through some contracts carefully and only work with good quality people, research, find testimonials. Make sure you're making the sound decisions. That's what it involves, big bucks.

Speaker 1:

I'd say that that's probably one of the biggest barriers that I have in my individual my one-to-one done for you side of my business is people that have hired people that have screwed them over. It happens so often and it happens in every industry. My husband used to say that his uncle used to say that told him you don't actually have to be great in business to succeed. You have to be good at what you do and do what you say and you will excel, because not enough people do that you actually do the bare minimum.

Speaker 2:

It's very surprising. It's sad.

Speaker 1:

It's sad, it's frustrating. I get it because I deal with the fallout from those types of situations that you're talking about and it's hard when you're somebody that is very upfront and very open and honest with people and they get lined to to be sold to and it's not fun for either side.

Speaker 2:

No, no, it's a horrible circumstance. Yeah, everyone, if you're going to hire an agency, a consultant, you name it. Be careful, be thorough. Also, a thing is read Try to learn how to read people how they talk, if they're genuine, and also test out. Don't go so long. That was the ratio too, we are going. Maybe it would take, because SEO can take a long time.

Speaker 1:

Again, three to six months is probably a fair time.

Speaker 2:

But why they tell you that. It's also why you forgot. So they say, oh, another three months, oh, another three months, but SEO is three to six months genuinely, but they want to keep going longer. If you're not getting some kind of realistic growth, stop, be careful. Consider a change, just things we should have realized sooner. It was a big mistake At three months, four months, zero increase.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, john. Thank you so much that there's a lot to learn from that lesson for a lot of our listeners, I'm sure. Thank you all so much for tuning in. If you learned something from this today, I would love it if you would rate and subscribe wherever you're listening to your podcast or if you're watching on YouTube. That would be great. If you want to connect with John, we'll have a link to his website in the show notes, so be sure to do that and you can get more from him there. Thank you all again for tuning in. Have a great rest of your day, take care.

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